David - Could it be that the green is sort of in a valley where the natural look would be a scalloped hazard, rather than one flashed up or raised ?

I'm wondering if Rees Jones was involved at PVGC during his round period?

To sum up the Rolling Stones:

I know, it's only Fazio but some like it.

It went like that, right?

Wayne--Thanks....the difference b/w those two aerials shows exactly what I mean...bunkers like the present ones are found nowhere else on the course.

While I do not believe these to be Fazio's work, I'd be interested to know who actually changed them into the ill fitting circles.

Well then why imply that #11 is part of what you've been noticing? I was looking for standardization and formalization, and I really found none. Sure, I could tell there were clearly areas where a sandpro could fit, but I would hardly call that formalization.

Sean/David,

That PV's sandy waste areas are being kept much more formalized, cleaned-up, and standardized than their past practices doesn't seem much in dispute and has been covered here countless times in the past.

The last I saw the course was Crump Cup 2005 with a member of this DG and we both found it lamentable.

If things are progressing in the other direction, then I would certainly welcome that news!  

As far as Fazio's involvement, as the consulting architect for the club for at least the past decade or so, who exactly should receive the credit for the present state of any feature on the course, for better or worse?

Mike - In your first post on this thread, you implied that Fazio was responsible for the observation made by D H Carroll, and backed up by Wayne's comments, namely that the bunker ahapes, etc. on the right side of 11 are out of character with the rest of course. I don't think that's true.

As for the clean up, it is unmistakeable, but I just don't see what you mean by "formalization" or "standardization."  That just seems like an extreme description, calculated more to indulge your feelings about Fazio, as opposed to Pine Valley. I, personally, think that cleanup at PV is a step in the right directions. The course has more formal bunkering (as opposed to waste, scrub) in the trees than some clubs have on their entire course.

What exactly do you find so lamentable?

Sean,

I don't have much time at present to engage in debate.

You like the bunker cleanup that was done at Pine Valley.   So be it, I don't.   I think the idea that you leave enough room around plantings, grasses, etc. to drive through with a machine gives them a very symmetrical, forced appearance, and also belies what used to be their fearsome irregularity and unpredictability.

If Fazio has been purely in a "passive" consulting arrangement, then you can't credit him and I can't blame him.

Fair enough?

That works Sean.  

btw, did Fazio build the new hyper-elevated tee on 14, or was he a passive observer?    

Jim,

Most of the new tees are pretty well done.   My quibble with the one on 14 is simply that it is so obviously contrived and artificial.  The original tees were simply cut into the existing hillside while the new one is built pyramid-like atop it.  I think it's unlike any other tee on the property and that's not a compliment.

The back left tee on 12 is also one that troubles me, simply because there is absolutely no reason to do anything on the hole from there but try to hit it as far down the right side as possible.  I'm not sure that Crump designed the hole to be so one-dimensional, but until they take down the trees on the left hiding the field of bunkers, it's a moot point.

Finally, the angle of the tee on 18 is quite a bit to the right than the original, meaning that a fade from the tee is now almost a required shot.   Given the proximity to the 17th green of the original tee however, there was no way to get around that problem and still lengthen the hole.

BTW, I'm one of the fans of the Fazio green on the 8th, so contrary to Sean's assertions, this isn't personal.  It's more about his work.  Did I mention I'm a big fan of Trump National in NJ?  

Mike - I tend to agree with you on those points, but on 14, if they decided to lengthen the hole, I don't know where else you'd go. If they stayed at grade, then you probably wouldn't be able to see the hole. I don't really mind it all that much. Nor do I really mind all the other tees, but perhaps that's because they are just amusement to me, not a realistic playing ground.

I hate the right green on 8! (i guess love-hate is more appropriate). I love the green, hate what it does to my scorecard. On Saturday, while driving to the range I breathed a sigh of relief upon seeing the pin cut on the left green. But when we got to the hole, we found they had switched it in the intervening 2 hours to the right green.  

Mike - I think its diabolical, and like it for that reason (in a masochistic sort of way). It is far more severe than the left green - perhaps too severe when you consider its size. I saw an unbelievable putt made there this weekend, with the player playing basically up hill to a flatter portion to take some speed off before beginning the quick march down to the front. his back was to the hole.