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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« on: August 20, 2006, 11:04:36 PM »
Ted S listed all the reasons why Medinah is wrong in design - too easy for pros and too hard for the rest of us - including specific features that made it that way - narrow fw, flat greens being the big culprits.  I have been saying all along that anything that hurts good players hurts the average player about four times worse.

That said, what gca features hurt the pros more than the average guy, or at least challenge the pros without causing substantially more grief for the average guy, and should a course be filled with those features, generally speaking?

I think I can devine more rolling contours on a green, as few average players will go from three putt to four putt, no matter how rolling.

The front to back green slope makes pro golf predictable, and should be negotiable by average guys if reversed or side canted in the right situations every once in a while.

What about:

Green surrounds that carry missed shots further away?

Is Rough/grass bunkers flexible enough to include as a good feature?

Memorial style bunker raking......

I am interested in hearing your list of features that would make championship courses more challenge for the pros, while not unduly hard on average players the other 51 weeks a year (or really, for Medinah, 364 weeks between tournaments)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_MacWood

Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 11:11:25 PM »
Jeff
Do you think Chicago golf architects suffer from looking at Medinah as their model of great golf architecture?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 11:11:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

Paul Richards

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Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 11:15:04 PM »
Tom

Actually, I think the opposite is going on all around Chicago.

I said it before and I will say it again.  Medinah did a great job with tree removal around the greens and around the tees.

Unfortunately, they left 2/3rds of the job undone - they didn't remove hardly any trees from tee to green.  I think this helped make them suffer this week.  

And, I'm afraid, Rees made the greens too flat - I assume, in the interest of making them putt fast.  And, unfortunately, someone (not sure who made that call yet) kept them too moist and they acted like dart boards all week.

This confluence of events leaves you with something that no other course has been or will try to replicate in the Chicagoland area.
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 11:18:35 PM »
The most practical and easy to accomplish feature I have seen in a while would be the furrowed bunker rake.....fairways and greenside
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 11:20:02 PM »
Jeff,
I forgot one....raise the tee height to 2 inches during tournament play...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ryan Farrow

Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2006, 11:21:12 PM »
Jeff, in my experience Memorial style bunker raking is something that should not hurt the average golfer. I hit out of furrowed bunkers just before I left Oakmont to see what all the fuss was about. Looking back at how much the Pro's complained I felt like Champ, I had no problems at all  ;

More often than not i would rather be in rough than a bunker, especially when they are in the fairway. Im sure professionals don't feel the same way.



mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2006, 11:55:02 PM »
Pinehurst #2 seems to be the exact opposite from this week.The challege is there for pro but the everyday player still gets it around green,doesnt lose balls and fails to see how he is that different from the pro because the 68 the pro shot looked about like the 95,if only he had a few breaks.

Matt_Ward

Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 12:15:50 AM »
Medinah -- the formula is a simple one for future major events ....

R.I.P.

Nuff said ...

Matt_Ward

Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 12:19:16 AM »
One other point for clarification purposes --

Kudos to the club in having Tiger win there both times -- it's no less what happened to Baltusrol in having Jack win two majors there.

The architecture may be second tier stuff -- but at least the world's finest player bagged the title.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2006, 12:19:45 AM »
wouldn't it be something if they redesigned it again and put some of the hills back in, put back more contour in the greens, etc...i.e., kind of the opposite of what Rees did
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2006, 03:14:26 AM »
Put lots of soft sand in the bunkers, so high trajectory shots are more likely to bury.  That makes bunkers something to be feared.

Doesn't affect the bogey golfer much, they hit lower trajectory shots and are more likely to be going sideways or bouncing when they enter bunkers instead of arcing straight into them, so they have less chance of a buried lie.  Plus, for many bogey golfers being in the bunker is already scary and taking two to escape isn't a rare occurrance, so the odd buried lie for them isn't as big of a deal as it is for the scratch golfer.

And stop raking all the sand off the faces so that balls roll down to a slight upslope giving them the easiest possible escape.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 03:14:58 AM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2006, 04:46:59 AM »
My shout, having only ever seen Medinah on the television:

1) bunkers are supposed to be hazards.  The bunkers at Medinah appeared shallow and there appeared to be little problem for these players to play whatever shot they wanted from the bunkers.

2) what is the point of having every bunker surrounded by rough?  It was clear that in every case a player hitting a poor shot preferred the ball to land in a bunker than the rough immediately surrounding it.  The bunkers would have been more hazardous had they been filled in and rough allowed to grow in them.  Bunkers at Medinah had become visual distractions, with the advantage to the pro that if they hit it in the rough and got lucky by finding a bunker, they wouldn't drop a shot.

3) the greens were, simply, too easy to hit and too easy to putt on.  The first of these was, I suppose, at least partly due to the weather, but these greens were too soft.  These guys could play any club they wanted at the greens and hold them.  I read an interesting quote from Ogilvy (an intelligent and admirable golfer, I think) on Saturday where he commented that on one hole (I forget which) he had hit a very poor tee shot, which he would have expected to cost him a shot.  However, he had been able to hit a 2-iron from rough (presumably the first cut or semi) and stop the ball in 12 feet from its pitch mark.  As to the ease of putting, I can't recall seeing a three putt.  Certainly long reange putts were routinely leaving tap ins.  There were no greens where being out of position seriously threatened a three putt.

I'd like to think that the sport's governing bodies would look at Medinah and realise that length is not the answer to giving these guys a challenge.  Sadly I expect that across the world plans are already being made for 8,000 yard courses.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2006, 06:41:49 AM »
What did we learn?  Tournament golf course is not the same as every other golf course. It is punitive and dictatorial by nature, not strategic design. It reflects medal play at a championship level, while we enjoy strategic-match play in club golf.  The golf course was too wet, greens too young. It made for boring viewing and played into Tiger’s game. Power golf is the future of tournament golf.  Who will be the next Tiger? He will be 6’8” and be able to bench press 300 pounds

Jay Flemma

Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2006, 06:46:42 AM »
Yeah...so glad they signed on to make sure rees has to sign off onn all changes...somebody needs a new negotiator in the room...wish that guy repped sony...

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2006, 08:12:44 AM »
 It looked like whatever tour event they play in Memphis and not a major. Soft greens turned Medinah into a birdie festival.

I can't wait for their explanation of soft greens before the rain. Has there been a statement from the PGA or the Superintendent  on this subject?

I can't wait for Rees to explain why his greens have no contour.

I can't wait for #3 to be remodeled again.

I can't wait for #3 to be a par 70, at least for the next PGA and Ryder Cup.

I can't wait for DL3 to explain his weekend scores.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Scott Witter

Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2006, 08:13:58 AM »
Jeff:

First, I found it  boring as I would expect others did as well, that the increased length had little affect on the tour players, discuss amongst yourselves...

Though it doesn't so much relate to Medinah, I would like to see the sand in the bunkers changed for tournaments to a type of sand that isn't friendly to play, such as a soft, rounded not angular fine sand that actually promotes fried-egg lies and deep ones.  I have seen so many tournament courses with perfect sand (3.0-3.5 penetrometer rating) that it is simply ridiculus to think that any bunker will have a lick of defense against these players.  Heck, I am fairly certain the sand in the bunkers at Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Wildhorse and other newer facilities are not wonderful friction sand.  The  resort players and members at those and other courses seem to get along just fine, so why shouldn't the tour players face the same conditions.  It might help average public and the private player's to better relate as they watch on the weekends.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 08:28:29 AM »
Jeff:

First, I found it  boring as I would expect others did as well, that the increased length had little affect on the tour players, discuss amongst yourselves...

Though it doesn't so much relate to Medinah, I would like to see the sand in the bunkers changed for tournaments to a type of sand that isn't friendly to play, such as a soft, rounded not angular fine sand that actually promotes fried-egg lies and deep ones.  I have seen so many tournament courses with perfect sand (3.0-3.5 penetrometer rating) that it is simply ridiculus to think that any bunker will have a lick of defense against these players.  Heck, I am fairly certain the sand in the bunkers at Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Wildhorse and other newer facilities are not wonderful friction sand.  The  resort players and members at those and other courses seem to get along just fine, so why shouldn't the tour players face the same conditions.  It might help average public and the private player's to better relate as they watch on the weekends.
Bunkers are more of a hazard when they are deep.  I know pot bunkers are a feature of links courses but why can't somewhere like Medinah have fairway bunkers with lips high enough to prevent players hitting the ball with whatever club they like?  Why can't greenside bunker be deep enough to make getting it out priority number 1?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Steve_Lemmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2006, 08:50:18 AM »
Pinehurst #2 seems to be the exact opposite from this week.The challege is there for pro but the everyday player still gets it around green,doesnt lose balls and fails to see how he is that different from the pro because the 68 the pro shot looked about like the 95,if only he had a few breaks.

I think Mike hit it the nail on the head.  Medinah would be a horrible experience for the average joe.  So, what is the difference between the Pinehurst set up and the Medinah set up?

Adam Clayman

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Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2006, 09:18:59 AM »
We learned (again);

1)  The majority are always wrong

2) Designs by committee are flawed beyond just single mistakes

3) Chicago golf, in general, disrespects the craddle, lacks core principles and is nowhere near what CBM tried to gift to the city in the Columbia Expostion era (1893)

Level tees suck
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Philippe Binette

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Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2006, 10:30:28 AM »
What did we learn...

without good green complex and good design, distance is pointless to stop the modern players...

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2006, 10:33:40 AM »
I think that the stat that Tiger got up-and-down for par after missing greens 14 out of 16 times speaks volumns about how flat, boring green complexes offer no challenges to these guys.  I doubt Tiger's conversion rate will be as high when he plays The Ocean Course in 2012...! ;D 8)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2006, 11:30:46 AM »
Jeff
Do you think Chicago golf architects suffer from looking at Medinah as their model of great golf architecture?

Tom, I am unaware that that is happening at all.  Most Chicago sites are not that wooded, and budgets I think have been big enough to get away from the old double row to triple and even quadruple row sprinklers. I bet old Tom B kept it narrow to keep the sprinklers to a single row.......

Mike Beene,

When I played Pinehurst No. 2 this year (three times in total) I constantly thought the same thing.......Ironically, there is nothing about No. 2 that makes you No. 2 your pants, and yet it keeps nicking away at your score around the greens.  Not as frustrating as rough for the average player, but eventually chipping back and forth over the greens gets a bit tough for some.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2006, 11:37:37 AM »
I too found the greens to be to flat and soft. I am pleased the cream rose to the top and Tiger won is splendid style. That course does not need to see another event.

tlavin

Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2006, 11:42:04 AM »
One thing we may have learned is that you need something other than length to scare a pro if the course is soft.  Exhibit #1 is the scoring on the 16th hole.  The average score of 4.25 made it the hardest hole on the golf course.  What was it about the hole that made it so difficult?  It features a rather sharp dogleg at a length that takes driver out of their hands and the angle of the fairway makes it harder to hit, so more balls found the rough.  Length alone is almost meaningless.

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2006, 11:44:31 AM »
JB,

I am not so sure about Pinehurst #2.  It is so difficult for the 10 handicapper to hit those small areas on the greens for successful approach shots. It makes a 10 handicapper play like an 18, while the good player, even good amateur, has the accuracy to hit these small areas and putt for birdie. Not much of a penalty for them. I would not put Pinehurst # 2 up as a role model for strategic tournament golf.   And the chipping is relatively easy, slight uphill shots, providing too many up and downs all day long. It becomes redundant. Give me a golf course with more width on the approaches and faster fairways. More fun.

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