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John Kavanaugh

Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« on: August 18, 2006, 11:46:50 AM »
It is easier...Is that it..

John Kavanaugh

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2006, 11:49:45 AM »
The sister courses at Bandon are better than those at Kiawah..That is a big one..

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2006, 12:03:38 PM »
John:

It has way more variety of golf holes.

Kiawah is a great course, but not every hole has a character of its own ... mostly because there is only 10-12 feet of elevation change on the whole property.  Still, that makes a lot of the holes feel similar.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2006, 12:03:39 PM »
More playable--you can have a very long day at the Ocean Course playing out of the waste areas.  More diverse--the inland holes at Pacific have a character all their own but still blend well with the seaside holes; you don't have this diversity at Kiawah.  More scenic--the Oregon coast blows away what is certainly quite nice at Kiawah.  I think the holes are generally better too, but I honestly don't remember all the holes at the Ocean Course very well.  

Jordan Wall

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2006, 12:14:20 PM »
Without playing either course I know for sure I would rather look down at the ocean from 50 and 100 foot cliffs then be almost level with it..

John Kavanaugh

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2006, 12:17:28 PM »
Without playing either course I know for sure I would rather look down at the ocean from 50 and 100 foot cliffs then be almost level with it..

Ding, ding, ding, ding...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2006, 12:20:46 PM »
Yes, John, that's it for some people.  But get back to variety.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2006, 12:26:41 PM »
I'm not sure I can agree with the variety argument when Kiawah is far more elastic.  I would think Kiawah would be better suited for hosting the National Blind Golfer Championship and then the US Open on consectutive days then Pacific..

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2006, 12:34:38 PM »
I'm not sure I can agree with the variety argument when Kiawah is far more elastic.  I would think Kiawah would be better suited for hosting the National Blind Golfer Championship and then the US Open on consectutive days then Pacific..

I think the far more appealing/influential definition of variety from one hole to the next within a given setup, not the elasticity of the target-skill level of a chosen setup from one day to the next.

I've not played nor seen Kiawah anywhere other than TV or photos, so I can't comment on comparisons between the two...but I believe your definition of variety, though certainly plausible, is not the same most others would state.


« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 12:35:34 PM by Ryan Simper »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2006, 12:55:26 PM »
Ryan,

I'll give you that..Any thoughts on which course has the most variety or interest off of the tee..

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2006, 01:04:43 PM »
I had the pleasure of North Carolina golf in May of this year, including the Ocean Course.
I found the low country beauty stunning, especially including Kiawah, and the site of the Ocean Course possibly unparalled.....open, raw, wild.  Great Stuff!

My experience of the Ocean Course was mixed.  We took a cart, and if I had to do it over would have walked, for riding and experiencing the layout that way was disappointing....the paths are almost completely below the level of the fairways; from that vantage point you have to climb up steep slopes just to see each hole, and riding left me missing the chance to walk down the middle of the holes and thereby really get a good look at the strategy, the construction, the layout of each hole as it unfolds in the playing of it. While I was glad to get the chance to play there, at the end I felt cheated out of a real opportunity to experience Pete Dye's greatness.  It was a real guess where our shots went, so to grab several clubs, run up onto the fairways, search out shots, worry about the pace of play, etc., all took away from the majesty and excellence that is there.

The turf around the greens was grainy bermuda and precluded any runup shots.  The greens were bumpy and slow, without any doubt the worst greens of the 16 rounds that week (mostly in Myrtle Beach area but including Turtle Point and the Nicklaus course at Kiawah).  We were told when we were ready to play that the paspalum greens on the course were "good, much better than the practice green" but that certainly wasn't the case.  I was left wondering how the PGA Seniors, scheduled for next year in the same month we played, would fare with a stimp of 6 or 7 and truly bumpy surfaces.

Pac Dunes on the other hand?  Just completely awesome in all it's linksy and great ways....how does one compare them?
Tight turf, ground game, natural features, great variety, etc, etc.  Pure fun.

Tom
the pres

John Kavanaugh

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2006, 01:11:55 PM »
Tom,

One of the things I love about Kiawah is the choice of carrying your own or taking a caddie or a cart at all the same price.  I'm kinda surprised that a man of your physical stature would take the cart option.

When you were there was the new hotel/clubhouse finished...if so, how does it fit.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2006, 03:09:02 PM »
John:

It has way more variety of golf holes.

Kiawah is a great course, but not every hole has a character of its own ... mostly because there is only 10-12 feet of elevation change on the whole property.  Still, that makes a lot of the holes feel similar.

Tom, With all due respect I disagree about holes feeling the same at Kiawah. Not once have I felt bored on Kiawah Ocean nor have I looked back and felt a need for more variety... elevation challenges not withstanding.

I do not doubt that Pacific is MORE varied (have not had the pleasure as yet) but also do not believe it wholly accurate to label Kiawah Ocean as overall lacking in variety.

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2006, 03:09:09 PM »
John;
We didn't know we could walk until midway on the back nine when we noticed groups walking.  Had I known before I would have strongly lobbied for that instead of carts!!  
We played on May 15....the hotel was just rising from the foundations.  The word from staff was that the hotel is scheduled to open one week prior to the PGA Seniors...around the third week in May 2007.

Hope to get back to Kiawah someday for a better experience at the Ocean Course and another look at that low country beauty.

Tom
the pres

bakerg

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2006, 04:45:42 PM »
Tom- I think you mean clubhouse not hotel.  I was out there on Tuesday and they are a long way from finished.  I played with a resident and he said it will probably get finished the week prior to the event.  

As for Kiawah vs. Pacific Dunes.  It is not even a fair contest.  I would say there are only two holes on Kiawah that could keep up with Pacific.  #14 and #15.  Its a good course but shouldn't ever be mentioned in the same breath as Pacific.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2006, 05:31:05 PM »
They are BOTH fantastic golf courses.

The Ocean Course is my favorite Pete Dye golf course.  I find it much more compelling then TPC Sawgrass and I'm looking forward to Whistling Straits in October.  One day maybe I'll get to The Golf Club.

Similarly, Pacific Dunes is my favorite Tom Doak course and perhaps somday I'll get to Australia and New Zealand to see his work there.  Does Sebonack count?  If so then ditto.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2006, 05:37:11 PM »
Nice Geoffrey...I couldn't agree more, but then again I have never played the Honors Course...even though I can't imagine liking it more than Kiawah just cause I'm use to that type of scenery.

I see Kiawah Mike lurking...what took so long.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2006, 05:45:25 PM »
Thanks, Geoff.  I have been trying to avoid this parsing of one course vs another and your reply is perfect!  I feel the same about Pebble and Pacific Dunes, which Mr. Huckaby has been making me choose between on another thread.

It's a great big world.  Can't we all just get along?   ;D  And agree these are all fine courses?  Huh?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2006, 06:31:34 PM »
Bill, Bill,Bill.  I didn't MAKE you choose at all; you made a statement that one was better than the other and I just called you on it.

Heck yeah, all of these courses are great.  But if we just left it at that, we'd have pretty short and boring conversations.

 ;)

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2006, 09:03:51 PM »
I have not played the Ocean Course so really unfair for me to comment, but can you really have a CLOSESTTO THE DEAD SEA LION CONTEST at the Ocean Course?

Big B

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2006, 09:45:15 PM »
Both are fantastic in their own ways.  I liked Pacific better because is was completely natural.  You could see there was not a lot of ground moved to build the course.  Fits me eye!

MargaretC

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2006, 04:50:39 AM »

For me, it's no contest.  I love links-style courses.  I think Kiawah Ocean is a wonderful course and would never turn down the opportunity to golf there, but IMO, the golf experience of Pac Dunes is exceptional.  To be "fair" -- I'm not sure these two courses can be compared.  

I have a good friend who is not a golfer, but spends several days of their "golf vacations" walking whatever course they are at with her husband.  She would choose Pacific over Kiawah Ocean.  Both beautiful, but she calls Pacific "eye candy" because of its natural beauty -- not contrived or "landscaped."

TEPaul

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2006, 05:15:24 AM »
For me personally, BD trumps Kiawah because it just looks so much better--so much more natural. I've never liked the manufactured and highly shaped look of most all Pete Dye's courses but any architect, including Tom Doak, has got to pull out all his best stuff to make BD or any other of his courses play as strategically challenging through and through as many of Pete's courses do, particularly for good players. Pete may have some of the most razor thin margins for error in the entire history of golf course architecture and sometimes I think he throws in a bit of over-kill in a penal sense and I'd be happy to give you a couple of examples of that at Mystic Rock where we just held the Pa State Open.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2006, 10:33:14 AM »
Bill, Bill,Bill.  I didn't MAKE you choose at all; you made a statement that one was better than the other and I just called you on it.

Heck yeah, all of these courses are great.  But if we just left it at that, we'd have pretty short and boring conversations.

 ;)

 ;)  back at ya.

Jim Colton

Re:Where does Pacific Dunes trump Kiawah Ocean..
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2006, 04:46:30 PM »
They call it the Ocean course at Kiawah but I don't remember the ocean ever coming into play.  I know they changed some of the holes to get closer, but when I played it back in 1998, the holes were set pretty far back.  Still a great course, but not in the same league as Pacific Dunes, in my opinion.

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