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pacgd

Riviera - Once Again
« on: August 17, 2006, 12:54:20 AM »
I played Riviera last week for the first time in over a decade and fell in love again.  

It's been several years (perhaps since my last visit to NGLA) since I was absolutely taken aback by how GREAT golf architecture can really be.  I couldn't wait to fly home to flip through Geoff Shackelford's book again to refresh my memory regarding George Thomas' original design, and then to evaluate some of the things (many of which have been discussed on this forum) that have occurred to the golf course since then.

My question to the panel is as follows:

Let's leave water under the bridge and start with what Riviera is today, right or wrong.  Specifically, what would you do to the golf course starting today (if anything) if you were the owner of the club?

My own quick observations:

1.  First and foremost, eradicate the kikuyu, completely.  I would like to ask our agronomy contributors to comment if that can be effectively done, and how you would you go about doing it so it doesn't come back.  As is, the kikuyu (which I believe introduced itself at Riviera in the 1940's) stifles any thoughts of the ground game and eliminates most short game options.  It is stop and start golf at Riviera, plain and simple, with the sticky kikuyu.

2.  Restore the barranca so that it is again a hazard (it is now completely grassed over, playing very similarly to the depressions on the left hand fairway of #14 at Pasatiempo), particularly on 11,12 and 13.  It is too integral to the strategy of these holes (and others) to take away its teeth.

3.  Take out the trees to the left of #13 and take the fairway angle back to its original configuration (Thomas designed it along the lines of #13 at Pine Valley).

4.  CAREFULLY rework the current dual fairway #8 to replicate, as nearly as possible, the original Thomas hole.

5.  Restore, as faithfully as possible, using the abundant photographic documentation, the original Bell bunkers.

In my opinion, if you accomplished these five things, you could place tees in Timbuktu to lengthen the golf course in order to satisfy the USGA, and I wouldn't care; because, with the possible exception of the single week in a 10-15 year cycle when those tees were actually used, Riviera would be as good as it gets - once again.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 01:39:33 AM by SDZ »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2006, 03:31:41 AM »
SDZ, Please check your IM out and get back to me if there is any problem.

R I V I E R A   C O U N T R Y   C L U B

First thing to do would be to put Tom Marzaltov in a closet, lock it up and throw away the key. You wouldn't have to do that to Tom Fazio though, he's never been there, so it's not all his fault.

Second, eradication of all of the Kikuyu would be supreme. This would mean closing the course down for about a year or more I'm told. They would have to fumigate, eradicate and destroy every known organizim in the ground related to Kikuyu. this would further benefit because once it was all destroyed, they could start on the mess Marzlovotov has created there in the last four years. this would consist of the following holes:
  • #5 Completely eliminate the Mayan pyramid tee that was stupidly constructed and wrongly placed for that hole. It just simply looks ridiculous, not to mention unbeleivable that a reputable architect could even construct it.
  • #7 Completely get rid of that Marzaltoff serpentine-shit bunker that doesn't look like anything that ever existed on the course, let alone ever seen on a Fazio course-EVER.
  • #8 Completely blow-up the right fairway and the ridiculous-looking directional bunker that makes no sense in the words of Strategy & Construction. This would mean complete elimination of the ADA-approved wheelchair ramp, which I have to tell you may be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen on a golf course. WITF was he thinking?
  • Next on the hole would be the complete elimination of the Marzaltofian crowned right side of the green which is totally out of character with the rest of the course. Further proof that we should stop thinking about Deepdale, and take Riv by Eminent Domain.
  • #9 Get rid of the new green expanse that never existed in the original design. Some greens are meant to be partially blind--most portions of it! (Idiot)
  • #10 Who in their right mind--what architect in their right mind would ever want to change one of the greatest short par 4's, if not the greatest par 4 of them all? Further proof that Riviera and Marlborotoff are complete ignomramuses.
  • #13 Quite obviously getting rid of that new portion of green is the priority.
  • #14 thankfully the club saw through the rouge of completely flattening the hole and moving it back 30 yards. (As almost as preposterous as moving the entire hole on #4 at Pine Valley 30 yards forward to make room for parking, idiot.)
  • #15 Extending the bunker out to tighten the fairway was a brilliant expose' of just how out of touch these people can get, further revealing their incompetence at protecting one of America's GREATEST gems.
  • #16 Did some bunker work there which takes away from the most thrilling aspect of the shortest hole on the course. (in relation to par)--The Tee Shot.
  • #17 I hear Norm Klaparda now has a new bunker that never existed named after him there now. Tom Doak, What has Norm been smoking?
  • They have moved bunkers all around the place on this hole, and is now a patchwork of it's former self--a once challenging and mighty uphill three-shotter.
  • The entire creek beds and arroyos need to be exposed of all of that thick grass. The creek bed needs to be restored. It was magnificient. Tree need to come down. Not all of them, just some of them.
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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 03:51:41 AM »
That was quite possibly the best post ever on gca.com, Tommy N.

Poignant, clear and concice justification behind why such and such would be better served otherwise.

Careful when you get in your car tonight, it is best not to upset the locals.



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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006, 04:10:44 AM »
Michael,
I forgot one thing--the importance of Riviera being a fast & furiously firm golf course which requires no formal rough of one specific length. It would mean "Sporadic Rough" everywhere, which offers the ability of recovery, tough but fair recovery. Not impossible tough--let's spend some extra money at the orthopedic surgeon to have our wrists repaired--rough.

Fun rough.

Riviera was meant to be played off of the hillsides and shapings in that wonderfully beautiful canyon.

Also, I forgot: All of the drainage tiles that were put in the arroyos by Marzaloaf and Paul Latshaw will need to be removed so that the arroyos can properly and naturally drain again.
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Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006, 04:52:29 AM »
Tommy,

What have they done to the 10th?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 04:53:00 AM by Shane Gurnett »
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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006, 09:33:43 AM »
Quote from: Michael Dugger on August 17, 2006, 03:51:41 AM
That was quite possibly the best post ever on gca.com, Tommy N.

Poignant, clear and concice justification behind why such and such would be better served otherwise.

Careful when you get in your car tonight, it is best not to upset the locals.



I agree Tommy's post is excellent, though the personal attacks are unnecessary.  Just post the facts and leave the personal stuff out.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006, 01:27:14 PM »
Kikuyu eradication would be just as difficult as Tommy says.

There are two case studies in Santa Barbara.  

La Cumbre CC, a much reworked but very fun George Thomas course, is completely overwhelmed by kikuyu.  It is like velcro, bump and run shots are not possible.  Too bad.

The Valley Club of Montecito has no kikuyu.  Absolutely none.  The superintendent has a crew out every day that looks for any hint of kikuyu and manually eradicates it immediately.  Given the spores that are carried on golf shoe spikes, it is quite possible I guess for kikuyu to try to travel around.
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PjW

Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 03:11:33 PM »
As a past asst. supt. (1975-01977) these are my thoughts on the 'Old Lady'.  

I remember the course being firm and fairly fast with the fairways and rough only being watered a couple of times a week.  Under the eucalyptus trees there wasnt much grass especially between #15 and #17.  The fairways were mowed 4 times a week and all of the grass clippings were swept up after each mowing.  If I remember correctly we only used a couple of pounds of (n) fertilizer a year and the course didnt have that bright green color year round.  We alway made an application in late demember or early January for the tournament.  

Steve Badger was the Supt. at the time and his philosophy was keep the course lean and hard.  This was done by deep irrigation, constant mowing and clean up and infrequent fertilization.  At that time the irrigation system was a manual quick coupler system and we irrigated with two night water men.  The root system was down to 3 feet.  

With the installation of the computerized automatic irrigation system the watering changed.  Ownership wanted wall to wall green and the rest is history.  IMO the kikuyu in the microclimate that is Riviera can be managed for playability but it wont ever look like ryegrass.  As to the design changes I can only agree with Tommy; some things need to be preserved for the sake of history and it is the club's responsibility.

Phil
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006, 03:27:46 PM »
I've always hoped to visit Riveria...now I'm not so sure!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom Huckaby

Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 03:35:37 PM »
Paul - you seem to be into architecture above all other things... why would you NOT want to visit Riviera?  By all accounts it's a wonderful case study in the subject.  And didn't you read the first part of SDZ's post?  

Now don't tell me actually playing the game matters to you... that would be wholly inconsistent with certain other conversations.  It's all architecture all the time, isn't it?

 ;D ;D ;D
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2006, 03:42:57 PM »
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on August 17, 2006, 03:35:37 PM
Paul - you seem to be into architecture above all other things... why would you NOT want to visit Riviera?  By all accounts it's a wonderful case study in the subject.  And didn't you read the first part of SDZ's post?  

Now don't tell me actually playing the game matters to you... that would be wholly inconsistent with certain other conversations.  It's all architecture all the time, isn't it?

 ;D ;D ;D

Mr. Smart-A** ;):

I guess I meant that it seems to be going the wrong way architecurally..but I will grant you that it would be wise to see the changes that have occurred

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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom Huckaby

Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2006, 03:47:19 PM »
OK.  And here I thought playing the game might matter.  How silly of me.

 ;D ;D
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2006, 03:55:57 PM »
Huck --I think you have far too much time on your hands...

you need, oh, I don't know, diapers to change or something.... ;)
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom Huckaby

Re:Riviera - Once Again
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2006, 04:04:03 PM »
Quote from: Paul T on August 17, 2006, 03:55:57 PM
Huck --I think you have far too much time on your hands...

you need, oh, I don't know, diapers to change or something.... ;)

Not yet!  But that is soon to occur... and being in pins and needles about that is a big reason I'm spending a lot of time in here today.  It does rather take one's mind off other things.

BTW, I haven't been to Riv in MANY years.  I'd love to play it again.  But then again I'll play anywhere.

TH
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