[Brian Cenci]

Fellow GCA'r Dave Neveux and I are about to embark upon another golfing odyssey.  We are taking a 9 day trip and playing the following 12 courses, in order:

*Muskegon Country Club (Muskegon, MI)
*Whistling Straits - Straits (Kohler, WI)
*Blackwolf Run - River (Kohler, WI)
*Bull at Pinehurst Farms (Sheboygan Falls, WI)
*Whistling Straits - Irish (Kohler, WI)
*Blackwolf Run - Meadow Valley (Kohler, WI)
*Lawsonia - Links (Green Lake, WI)
*Greywalls (Marquette, MI)
*Black Lake Golf Club (Onaway, MI)
*Black Forest at Wilderness Valley (Gaylord, MI)
*Kinglsey Club (Kingsley, MI)
*Champion Hills (Honor, MI)

Of these, we have both played Greywalls and Champion Hills and I have played Kingsley.  So, which course will we be our favorite?  The biggest suprise?  Biggest disappointment?

[Phil McDade]

As one of GCA's resident Lawsonia mouthpieces, I'd be shocked if you didn't love the Links course. Interested to hear what you have to say about Whistling Straits vs. the Irish Course (a very good friend of mine -- and a very good golfer -- views the Irish as a tougher course than the Straits, and he plays both annually) and River vs. Meadows.

Have a great trip!

P.S. Eat some brats in Sheboygan...

[Brian Cenci]

Phil,
     Will do on the brats!  Any good bars, night spots in Sheboygan or the surrounding area?

-Brian

[PThomas]

I played Black Forest agin this year while on the family vacation...I played it years ago...but had forgotten how good it is

[Joel_Stewart]

Blackwolf Run and Whistling Straights will beat you into submission, so expect that.  

[Peter_Herreid]

With all appropriate respect, Brian, what could be the possible purpose of asking this?  What difference would it make what anyone here thinks of the places you are already scheduled to play, in advance of your playing them?  Would you really change gears on one of these courses if a few people came on here and trashed it?

I would think the better approach would be to report back AFTER your trip and report on what YOU think were the biggest surprises or disappointments.

All too often, with respect to courses we "discuss" on GCA, we "poison the waterhole" and some people go to courses they haven't played before pre-disposed to liking or disliking them.

Play them first, form your own opinions, and then educate the rest of us, who might have some of the preconceived notions about these courses...

[Phil McDade]

Brian:

I'll check w/ my Sheboygan sources and get back to you -- I didn't grow up there, but it is the Bratwurst capital of Wisconsin (which is saying something, considering how many brats we eat here...).

It sounds kind of odd, but if you have an hour or two to kill in Kohler (not sure if you do, given the schedule), stop by the bathroom exhibit/showroom at the Kohler plant in downtown Kohler. Seriously -- it's pretty amazing.

[tlavin]

Blackwolf Run (River) has always been an overrated disappointment to me, despite the natural beauty of the Sheboygan River.

[Jim Franklin]

I loved Kingsley, and Greywalls was a HUGE surprise to be that good that far away from civilization.

[cary lichtenstein]

How come Arcadia Bluffs in not in your rotation? Add that if you haven't played it, it is special.

Erin Hills should be open by now in Milwaukee, I'd add that too.

[Paul Payne]

I think if you have not played Lawsonia before you will find that a surprise. It will probably not be groomed to the same level as the other courses you have on your list (I've played Greywalls and the Kholer courses) but it is a course that kind of grows on you and gets under your skin. It is powerfully fun to play and once you get the idea of the strategies involved (and the bermed bunkers) you will have a blast.

I am curious to hear what you think when you return.

[Brian Cenci]

Thus far we've played Muskegon CC, Straits course, Irish course, Bull at Pinehurst Farms and Blackwolf Run (river).  Both Dave and I were most suprised thus far with the Irish course.  It sort of got a little bashed on previous posts of our trip but we both thought it was a solid top notch course.  I think it is a great compliment to the Straits course.  And, I still may be a little giddy from playing the Straits but I think it is the Straits is the best course I've ever played (topping all 3 Bandon courses in my book).  The buzz may where off a little from the round but, from the tips it is just a phenomenal course.  Only knock on the whole thing is the cost of the round and the darn replay cost that they still try and hit you with.

Playing Lawsonia in about two hours.  Looking forward to it immensly.

-Brian

[Paul Payne]

Bump

Brian, how was your experience at Lawsonia?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Brian, how did you like Muskegon?  I thought it was a huge surprise when I first played it.  It is a shame that they didnot use the land closer to to the lake however.  How in the world did you happen to put it on your list?
 I think Meadow/Valley will be a surprise for you.  I like it better than The River.  It is fun and fair.  Watch out for 18 it is a tough way to end the round.

[Matt_Ward]

Agree with Jim F on Kingsley and Greywalls -- the 1st at Greywalls is among the best starting holes I have played on a public course here in the States.

You can add Lawsonia as well on the biggest plus points for you coming trip.

[Ryan Heiman]

I  have been watching this site as a guest for some time, but now can join in the discussion so here goes.

I think the biggest dissappointment will be the meadow/valley at Blackwolf Run.

I played all the Kohler courses a month ago.  I had my best score at the Meadow/Valley, but that probably was because of the easy layout fo the meadow holes.  I also didn't care for the tricked up aspect of the valley.

The river is just flat out tough.

Lawsonia will be excellent as it always is.  You may also want to consider the woodland course at Lawsonia, one of my favorites.

I have read about all the unnatural complaints about the straits and the irish, but to me they were just awesome.  I loved them both.  Even though they are man made, they seem to play like they had always been there.

[Andy Troeger]

I didn't see this originally...but Blackwolf Run-River and Kingsley are amongst my favorites anywhere, with Whistling Straits somewhere up there too. Meadow Valleys to me is quite a bit preferable to the Irish course, mainly because the last seven at MV are REALLY good.

[Adam Clayman]

I  I also didn't care for the tricked up aspect of the valley.



 You may also want to consider the woodland course at Lawsonia, one of my favorites.

OK Ryan welcome to the fray.

Could please elaborate on these two comments? How was the Valley Tricked up? And... Why the Woodland is one of your favorites?

[Tim Bert]

Blackwolf Run (River) has always been an overrated disappointment to me, despite the natural beauty of the Sheboygan River.

Amen.  I was beginning to think I was the only one.

[Ryan Heiman]

I  I also didn't care for the tricked up aspect of the valley.



 You may also want to consider the woodland course at Lawsonia, one of my favorites.

OK Ryan welcome to the fray.

Could please elaborate on these two comments? How was the Valley Tricked up? And... Why the Woodland is one of your favorites?

10 on the valley is goofy.  The drive through the trees with the hard dogleg at the end.  It doesn't fit and even the pro there says the same thing. Then the short par four, I thinkit was like 13 with hard dogleg, no driver, the two par 3s as tough and pretty as they were almost the same,  shooting over a valley, 16 was tough to figure out the first time off the tee,where was the fairway. now that I played it I could figure it out.  The valley was just such a contrast to the meadows, that it didn't seem to fit.  Now if it played as the part of the river course like the original then it fit well, but not with the meadow 9.  

Don't get me wrong I loved the meadow valley and think it is a fun course, but just not on the level with the rest of the Kohler courses.  I don't think of all the course the thread starter will be playing, this one may dissapoint.

The woodlands on the other hand has a couple of quirky holes but mostly straight forward.  Even the quarry hole, I have seen guys play driver and hook it over the quarry and for a perfect drive. or hit long iron to the right and chip over.  It is just so scenic through the trees and by the lake.  The up and down, the variety of holes and shots make it tons of fun.

[Brian Cenci]

Well the little trip with fellow GCA'r Dave Neveux and I has ended and it was very enjoyable.  The only course we didn't play was the Meadow Valley course at Kohler.

My general thoughts on everything were that the Straits course was legit.  I think I posted previously how I liked it better than any of the Bandon courses.  I thought the way and number of holes that utilized the lake was terrific.  I only wish the greens fee and replay rate were more modest.  In my mind it's only worth paying for once, every couple of years.

I thought that Blackwold Run - River course was a little overated. Good overall layout and some very unique holes (like the 210 yard par 3 over the bend in the river).  Again, I thought it utilized the River very well on the holes.

The most underated course was the Irish course.  How people told Dave and I to skip this course for our trip is beyond me.  Some very scenic and again unique holes (the blind par 3 in particular).  It was the Straits course, just not not he water.  A great compliment to the Straits and in my personal rankings ahead of some very highly thought of other public courses in the country.  Proof that you need to play a course yourself to gather your own opinions.

The most overated course was Black Lake Golf Club in Onaway, MI, designed by Rees Jones.  When we teed off the starter said Digest ranked it 28th best public in the U.S.  It may not even be top 10 in Michigan.  I can name Arcadia Bluffs, Greywalls, Bay Harbor, Black Forest, Forest Dunes, Lakewood Shores, Tullymore, Eagle Eye, Shephard's Hollow, Red Hawk, Bucks Run, Angels Crossing as better public courses in the state of Michigan alone.  Black Lake was a nice course and well groomed but nothing really exciting about the holes.  I'm curious to know what others, who have played it, think of the course.

Here's a list of my personal trip ranking and a few comments on each:
#1 Whistling Straits - Straits
   * Not much more to say, extra points for the sheep on #11, played the tips, hardest course I've ever played
#2 Whistling Straits - Irish
   * great course, very underated
#3 Greywalls
   * course is still in great shape.  Top 4 in the state (public and private) in my opinion
#4 Kingsley Club
   * played in a nice wind.  Greens were more punishing then I remember.  Feel like I need to play this course about 10 times in order to get a feel for it.
#5 Blackwolf Run - River
   * first few holes were pretty blah.  Liked the #5 and beyond stretch of holes
#6 Black Forest at Wilderness Valley
   * Probably the worst maintenance of any course we played but the layout is very very challenging.  The 240 yard par 3 is a beast.  Greens weren't fast, and thank god because if they were I imagine the course would be too difficult for most.  Wish it was in a little better condition but I loved the variety and difficulty of even the simplest holes.
#7 Bull at Pinehurst Farms
   * Good course, in great condition as well.  Very very difficult.
#8 Muskegon Country Club
   * Loved this track.  Every hole is back to front which begins to wear on you after awhile.
#9 Lawsonia - Links
   * I can see why everyone raves about the course.  Feel like I need to play it a few more times.  Solid course though, provided a nice break from 4 days in a row at 7300+ plus of courses.
#10 Black Lake Golf Club
   * In good shape but nothing that really stands out.  It's like a nice country club layout set in northern michigan.


Arcadia was not in the rotation because I refuse to pay $175 there during the summer when I can play it after Oct. 1 all day at a reduced price.  Plus, I just played it a month ago.  The Downs was supposed to be on the rotation but it was during there member-member so that didn't work out.  We didn't play Erin Hills because paying $165 for the condition of the course that it is in now wasn't very appealing.

[Andy Troeger]

Tim and/or Terry,
  Just curious as to why you think the River is overrated? Its interesting how different people like different courses...I'm just curious what you didn't like about it.

[Tim Bert]

Hi Andy,

I've only played it once, so I'm by no means an expert.  I enjojyed it the least of the four of the Kohler courses.

I think there are a lot of holes there that are really quirky or ho-hum Dye creations.

#4 - seems a lot like a par 3 that you get at many Dye courses, except I think he subsituted rocks for the railroad ties.

#8 - the tee shot at Hell's Gate seems a bit contrived, though I'll admit that I'm more fond of this one than most of the quirks on the course.

#9 - One of my least favorite short par 4s ever.  I just didn't get the value of going for the "fairway" on the right over the water.

#13 - It seems like sort of a copy of #9, even though one is a par 4 and one is a par 3.  I'm not a big fan of the tree in the direct line of the green on a par 3.  It doesn't leave the player any options other than really high or right to left.  Not everyone has one of those two shots in their bag.  Right to left is my natural ball flight, so I'm not just complaining because the hole didn't fit my game.


#14 - I know this is called the River course, but I've had enough with the water by now, and I'm wishing I was back in the Meadow.

#17 - Didn't I play you once already?  No, that was #4 and many other Dye courses elsewhere.

I think there are many good holes out there as well.  It just didn't do it for me, and I'm perplexed by the super high ranking it gets in all the Best Public Courses in the US lists.

The course doesn't even rank in my personal top 25 (no, I don't have rankings, I'm estimating.)  Some people here would probably cringe at some of the selections I'd put higher than this one!

I'd love to try it again if I ever make it back to Kohler becasue the more I read, the more I'm convinced I missed something!

[Andy Troeger]

Tim,

Fair enough and thanks for your response. I've only played them all once too, so I'm no expert either.

#13 was the one hole I didn't really care for either because of what you mentioned. #9 and #13 are also certainly very similar visually from the tee, but I can say there is some definite benefit to going right on #9. I hit a high ball over everything and ended up in a front bunker with a pretty simple shot from right in front of the green.

There certainly is a lot of water, but I think that's kind of like saying there's a lot of bunkers and heather on the Straits Course. At some point it either is your cup of tea or not. It was my favorite of the four at Kohler, but I took the Irish Cse the way you took the River with it maybe staying in my top 50 or so. I was doing alright with it until about the last four holes, all of which made me cringe!

That's the nice thing about the different courses there. Even though they're all Pete Dye, there's different courses for different folks!

[Tim Bert]

Agreed.  There's something for everyone there.  I know it isn't really fair game to complain about water on a course called the River Course.

I really enjoyed the Meadows course.  Does anyone know the routing they used for the women's US Open?  I'm interested to know if I would have liked that 18 better than either of the individual courses.  I think it might have been the original 18 out there, though I can't recall.

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