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Jerry Kluger

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Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« on: August 09, 2006, 01:29:48 PM »
I have now seen two courses where they have a par 5 that has a blind second shot over a hill and you cannot see the flagstick unless you are well inside 100 yards.  To me this doesn't work very well as you have to go up over the hill to make sure that you are not hitting into the group ahead of you, and when you are hitting a long shot you are not as sure about exactly where the ball landed which does not make it an attractive candidate for a severe risk/reward.  Does anyone know of any par 5s with a blind second shot that work well?
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ForkaB

Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2006, 01:37:02 PM »
The 10th at my home course (Aberdour) is 530, down from an elevated tee and then up a hill that peaks at about 100 from the hole and then drifts slightly downhill again, but with a storng left to right cant.  Into the wind when the course is soft, getting to the top of the hill requires two really good hits.  In the summer, and down wind, it can be a drive and a 7 iron.  It is a good hole which is rarely hit in two, even by the best players.

As for hitting into groups ahead, there is a bell by the green, and people play so quickly and politely over here in Scotland this is not an issue, anyway.
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Jerry Kluger

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 01:42:54 PM »
Rich: Is there much trouble around the green - one par 5 I am thinking of has some severe bunkers and thick grass around the green so it could be difficult to find your ball.
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Steve Lang

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 01:44:26 PM »
 8)

#1 at Greywalls is blind, and marginally ok... it helps to have a forecaddy equivalent to find balls that may stray right or hit center rocks... one easily see folks moving to green..
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D_Malley

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 01:52:16 PM »
both par 5's at merion east have blind second shots, although with modern technology the second shot on #2 is probably not blind anymore.  they are both pretty good holes.
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ForkaB

Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 01:55:03 PM »
Jerry

Bunkers right and left and long, but no real problems otherwise, unless you shank or duck hook your 2nd. The real test is when you have to sink a 5-foot slippery downhill/sidehill putt for a par on a hole you think on the tee you should birdie.
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Jerry Kluger

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 01:56:39 PM »
Rich: You obviously are familiar with my game.
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John Goodman

Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 02:03:00 PM »


The above (the picture is Jay Flemma's I believe) is the 5th at Mike Strantz's Royal New Kent.  The second plays up and over the bunkers in the far distance and is blind.  The green is well bunkered.  The hole works very well, but then again I rather like blind shots.
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ForkaB

Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 02:03:42 PM »
Jerry

It's my game too!  No strokes given or taken if and when we get to play!
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Jerry Kluger

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 02:24:58 PM »
John: My recollection of that hole was that a good tee shot puts you just short of those hills and then you blast it through the opening and the green sits up in an open area. The blind aspect of the hole is close to where your tee shot lands and it shouldn't be difficult to locate your ball around the green.  The problem would be much greater if those hills were say 100 yards from the green and the green was off to one side with significant trouble around it.  Pete Dye had a hole at the old Cypress Links, I believe the 6th, which had that type of situation but there was not much trouble around the green.
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Dan_Callahan

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 02:28:47 PM »
Both Yale (18) and Ekwanok (7) have blind second shot par 5s. Yale's might be reachable, Ekwanok's is not. I am learning to like both of the designs, although initially I didn't.
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John Goodman

Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 02:44:06 PM »
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on August 09, 2006, 02:24:58 PM
John: My recollection of that hole was that a good tee shot puts you just short of those hills and then you blast it through the opening and the green sits up in an open area. The blind aspect of the hole is close to where your tee shot lands and it shouldn't be difficult to locate your ball around the green.  The problem would be much greater if those hills were say 100 yards from the green and the green was off to one side with significant trouble around it.  Pete Dye had a hole at the old Cypress Links, I believe the 6th, which had that type of situation but there was not much trouble around the green.

At RNK 5 the green is defended by four bunkers, fairly deep ones too.  But you're right that there's no great danger of losing your ball on the second shot, unless you mishit it pretty badly.  Though a pull will probably find a bunker.

I tend to think that such holes (par 5s with blind seconds) are not really intended to be risk-reward; their currency being more the apprehension and discomfort that blind shots can engender.
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Jim Franklin

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2006, 03:47:54 PM »
Jerry -

BCC's #14 has blind second shot, is that one of the two you were referring? At 603 it is only reachable by a few at our club (David Carroll and I being two), but the layup shot is certainly not difficult by any stretch.

Jim
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Bill Gayne

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2006, 05:36:52 PM »
Jerry,

The Klondyke at Lahinch is the golf hole you're describing and I agree that it doesn't work well for the very reasons you stated. It's applauded at Lahinch because it's old, part of the natural lay of the land (no earth moving), and it adds to the overall quirk that people love about Lahinch. The hole is 476 yards from the back and generally plays down wind going away from the sea.



(as an aside, it's a stretch for me to see Lahinch in the Ballyneal photos. I haven't been to Ballyneal though.)
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2006, 05:58:10 PM »
Bill, I didn't make the corrolation to the links of GB&I, Ran Morrissett did. I just picked a photo of irreguarly shaped dunes and viola, not that big a stretch.  I will admit it requires a small stretch due to differences in vegetation.
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Mike McGuire

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2006, 06:47:25 PM »
The 1st @ Erin Hills.

picture is taken from the LZ. Your second shot should is hit blind over the bunker ..right of the big oak. You might be able to see the group in front of you on the green to the left of the oak

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Mike Benham

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2006, 10:04:19 PM »
Tobacco Road #1 ...

It could be said that all 3 shots are blind, where you have to hit over an object, dunes in this case, to a landing area.

If I recall, it is a bunkerless green but receptive to a variety of shots (assuming first and fast conditions).

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David_Tepper

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2006, 10:11:08 PM »
Isn't the 8th hole (a par-5) at Augusta National a blind 2nd shot (at least for those going far the green)? Never played it, so I can't comment "whether it works or not!"l
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Mark_F

Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2006, 10:46:32 PM »
Both of the only two par fives on Doak's Gunnamatta Course at St Andrews Beach have this feature.

On the first the green is blind no matter how long the drive, whilst a huge smash on the 17th in the right conditions could possibly trundle over the hill and give one a site of the green.

I don't mind the feature because it makes those big hitters all the more unsure about what is waiting for them, and that can't be a bad thing.
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James Bennett

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2006, 11:57:30 PM »
Mark

the first hole at StAB (par 5) is also blind for the third shot.  Pretty tough start when you can't see the green (let alone the pin)from a 100 yards out.  However, you can see the pin from the tee shot, and from perhaps 70 yards out.

How do you play this one?  From memory?

James B
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2006, 12:08:15 AM »
3 of Black Mesa's fives have some blindness on the 2nd shots.
There are locations where the shot isn't blind.
6, 13 & 16.
In a handful of plays I've eagled 13 & lipped out a putt for eagle on 6.
As for 16 - I still haven't made a par...

The par fives are most excellent.
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Doug Siebert

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2006, 12:23:21 AM »
Of course it also slows down those who are going for the green in two because you can't tell when the green is clear very easily.  Its nice if there is a hilltop somewhere around that you can walk up to get a glimpse of the green and know when the way is clear.

The Cardinal at Prestwick is a good example of this.  I know the second shot is blind, but I've never actually set foot on the fairway up on the hill where you lay up so I'm not sure if that is also blind for a third shot or not.
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Mark_F

Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2006, 06:31:34 AM »
Quote from: James Bennett on August 09, 2006, 11:57:30 PM
Mark

the first hole at StAB (par 5) is also blind for the third shot.  Pretty tough start when you can't see the green (let alone the pin)from a 100 yards out.  However, you can see the pin from the tee shot, and from perhaps 70 yards out.

How do you play this one?  From memory?

James B

James,

I don't see why 70 yards is acceptable and 100 isn't.  

You play it by feel, something perfectly acceptable I think given how easy par fives are these days.

What better on a (short) course with only two par fives to introduce a little uncertainty into the proceedings?  
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Andrew Summerell

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2006, 07:08:41 AM »
The 10th at Newcastle has a blind drive & 2nd, as stated in a previous post. I have never felt unfairly punished due to the blindness of the 2nd shot.

As for safety, there is a bell that you ring when you walk off the green so the group behind knows it's safe to hit.
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david h. carroll

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Re:Blind 2nd shot par 5s
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2006, 10:02:08 AM »
I always felt that Hell's Half Acre at PVGC was kind of a blind 2nd shot par five....you can see the green, or at least the pin, but you can't really see the ball land on the 2nd shot....could be that my memory is failing me.
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