Underrated...overrated

« **on:** August 07, 2006, 08:54:19 AM »

It's always interesting to me to see how others see certain courses. I don't believe in attempting to complile a list of courses that would be my "Top 100", preferring to utilize something like the Doak Scale.

I'd be interested if others out there would list 3 courses they consider "underrated" by the golf world, as well as 3 courses they consider "overrated".

Here are 3 and 3 in my view:

Underrated:

Morraine Country Club (Dayton, OH)
Royal Aberdeen
Beach Tree Golf Club

Overrated:

Turnberry
Atlantic
Castle Pines

I suppose the overrated portion of this excercise will not be as enlightening as the underrated nominees, but it's all in the interest of sparking debate. The underrated list might give all of us some new places to check out.

TS

« **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2006, 08:58:08 AM »

Underrated

High Pointe
Kingsley
Lakewood Shores (The Gailes)

Overrated

Pinehurst #2
Portmarnock
Congressional

« **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2006, 09:13:45 AM »

2 underrated, Meadow Club and Indian Creek. 3 overrated, one in Greenwich CT, one in central Virginia and one Kansas. The Virginia and Kansas courses are all world facilities with very good golf courses, just not close to top 50 in USA (IMHO) as one magazine has them.

« **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2006, 09:20:10 AM »

Underrated:

Royal Melbourne East
Woodlands
Royal Cinque & Ports

Overrated:

Pebble Beach
Waireki
Whistling Straits (based purely on photo's)

« **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2006, 09:52:58 AM »

Andrew:

Help me out with something -- what type of gift do you possess that you can tag a course with line "overrated" simply from photos?

I have issues -- pro & con -- with WS but that comes from having made personal separate visits with each of the layouts there.

Candidly, if anything is overrated it's the idea that you or others can apply a label to a facility from nothing more than the comfort of your own computer area at home.

Forgive me, it's just that I value personal visits because the direct experience trumps everything else and is the only fair way to understand what you are saying and how it applies to the facility in question.

« **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2006, 09:57:40 AM »

Underrated:

Meadow Club
Old Town
Gulph Mills

Overrated:

Oak Hill
Olympic
Bulle Rock

« **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2006, 10:00:03 AM »

Under-rated

Enniscrone - Staggeringly not included in the recent Golf World GB & I top 100. I can only assume because not enough people have played it. Really top class.
Silloth on Solway
St Enodoc

Over-rated

Killarney (Mahony's point)
Waterville (pre changes - very bland run of holes from 5-10. Good but not great)
Cruden Bay - Enjoyed it but top 50 in the world?

« **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2006, 10:05:26 AM »

underrated

Rolling Green
University of New Mex
Cal GC
Angels Crossing

« **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2006, 10:35:39 AM »

Overrated: I have to throw in more than 3
Trump in Palm Beach !!!!!
Troon
Portmarnock
Bellerive
Hazeltine
Underrated:
Worcester
St. Louis

For what it's worth, I think Pebble, Muirfield, Olympic, and Turnberry mentioned above are all great.

« **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2006, 10:41:25 AM »

Ted,

It's been my limited experience that some courses are labeled as overrated or underrated due to geography or regionalism.

It's an example of the big fish in the small pond, or, living under a giant shadow.

The rating process tends to be regionally oriented.
Raters from Florida aren't providing the preponderance of data for golf courses in Oregon, Kentucky or New Mexico, and vice versa. And as such, regional assessment seems to prevail.

If Mountain Ridge was in the Mid-West, South West or West, there's no doubt in my mind that it would be deemed top 100.

Mainly because it would stand head and shoulders above its local peers.

However, in the Metropolitan NY area, it's one of many great courses and as such lives in the shadows of the Winged Foot's, Pine Valley's, Shinnecock's, NGLA's, GCGC's, Baltusrol's, Ridgewood's, Quaker Ridge's, etc., etc..

Pumpkin Ridge seems to exemplify the concept.

In that area of the country it stands out.
In the greater Metropolitan NY area, or the greater Philadelphia area, it would be, "just another golf course", and certainly not a top 100 golf course.

« **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2006, 11:37:08 AM »

Underrated:

Essex CC (MA)
Lehigh CC
Barona Creek
Wildfire GC -Faldo

Overrated:

Stanwich
Great River GC
Tralee (although i would go back definately)
Western Gailes (maybe I'm just bitter after a 91 as a 6-hdcp)

« **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2006, 12:15:27 PM »

Peter,
Have you played Lakewood Shores (Gailes) recently? I would have agreed with you as underatted two years ago but I played it about a month ago and it has not been taken care of. Pretty shaggy and the conditioning was way down. Good course though if kept up.

Underatted:
*The Harvester (Iowa)
*Eagle Eye (Michigan)
*Tanglewood Park - Championship (North Carolina)
*Hammock Bay (Florida)

Overatted:
*Quarry at Giants Ridge (Minnesota)
*Hawktree (North Dakota)
*Mid Pines (North Carolina)

« **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2006, 12:27:18 PM »

I agree with Pat's points about regional inequities.

That said

Over rated

Kinloch
Yeamans Hall
Pinehurst #2

Under Rated

Eastward Ho
The Kingsley Club
Prairie Dunes

« **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2006, 01:50:24 PM »

Underrated:

Old Tabby Links
Knollwood (north of Chicago)
TPC Sawgrass

Overrated:

Rich Harvest Farms
Blackwolf Run
Pebble Beach

« **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2006, 01:53:43 PM »

Wha a great "Sturgian" post. This is the typical stuff we have been missing around here!

Over-Rated:
--Quintero
--Shadow Geek (Creek)
--The Quarry @ La Quinta

Underated: (and often misunderstod)
--Plainfield (How it is not considered one of the Great jewels of the Sport is beyond me)
--Lehigh (Never really given it's true due. It's a grat lesson in routing a golf course with some absoltuely beautiful holes. #10 is about as subtle as a golf hole can get, yet cintains a brilliance that wil never fail to perplex and entertain, while challenging you.
--Inniscrone (Often maligned by many, I think it's the Ellen Barkin of golf courses. It's pretty sexy and when that voice speaks to you, your just sort of taken in by all of it. Your legs go numb from loving it, even with all of the obvious quirks and so called ugliness. You just want to do it over and over and over. The course plays me like a fool.) (I would eventually get my Inniscrone in Moorpark.)

« **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:03:21 PM »

It surprizes me tht Portmarnock appears on the overrated courses. I agree it doesn't knock you socks off but its subtleties take time to appreciate. It is demanding off the tee and the greens complexes are intricate and ask for thought and execution to make birdie.

Overrated:
Trump International (Palm Beach)
Bulle Rock
Milwaukee CC

Underappreciated:
Musgrove Mill GC
Delamere Forest
Sunningdale New

« **Reply #16 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:06:03 PM »

two guys have mentioned Plainfield as underrated.

in the interest of spirited discussion, and wothout any animosity, i will say that I think Rolling Green BLOWS AWAY Plainfield, and that I think Plainfield is not a top 100 classical

« **Reply #17 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:06:13 PM »

Pat,

Good point on regions. I would also put Pumpkin Ridge on a list of overrated courses in any region however. You did not offer us any underrated names. I'd love to hear what you like that the rest of us might not know about.

To Wayne F. Where is Worcester?

To G. Childs. I'm not one to place much emphasis on the magazines ratings, but last time I checked Prairie Dunes was in the Top 25 in the World by Golf Magazine. I agree that it is World Class and one of my favorites, but how high would you want to see it before you thought it was "fairly rated"? Also loved Kingsley. Great comment. Sorry you don't appreciate YHC, it is one of my favorites.

TS

« **Reply #18 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:20:06 PM »

Overrated
1. Sand Pines, anything is too much
2. Royal Aberdeen
3. Waterville
4. European Club

Underrated
1. Cruden Bay
2. St. Enodoc
3. Ganton
4. Oakbourne CC

« **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:20:10 PM »

Scott,
I have never played Rolling Green, I've only seen it while eduring multiple viewings, and when I'm saying multiple, I'm talking like 20 times of seeing A Gentleman's Game. (a movie so bad that I'm addicted to watching it)

Therfore I'm out.

But I find it hard to believe that you could think Plainfield as anything close to being overated. )Not showing any anymosity. Even though Rolling Green is clearly not that concerned with who accept as a member.) (thinking of Knucklehad Malone)

« **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:33:31 PM »

Quote from: Ted Sturges on August 07, 2006, 02:06:13 PM

To G. Childs. I'm not one to place much emphasis on the magazines ratings, but last time I checked Prairie Dunes was in the Top 25 in the World by Golf Magazine. I agree that it is World Class and one of my favorites, but how high would you want to see it before you thought it was "fairly rated"? Also loved Kingsley. Great comment. Sorry you don't appreciate YHC, it is one of my favorites.

TS

Ted

I was not thinking of the magazine ratings when I mention Prairie Dunes. I put it up there because it will almost never get a mention from folks when they state their "best lists" and yet it truly in my mind is up there with the likes of many that are considered "Top 10". PD is perhaps a case of regional neglect and somewhat easy access.

Yeamans Hall on the other hand has in my opinion greatly benefited from its location. Fully restored it might be worthy of its place but if it was to relocate to Long Island or Westchester for instance it would get lost among a sea of other courses including Engineers, Piping Rock Creek (Raynor's no less! both of which I feel are better tehn YH), Fenway and others. Besides I need to get Ran's lather up a bit as often as possible and this surely will do it

« **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:46:03 PM »

A Gentleman's Game--ouch. now i understand.

I like Plainfield, I just dont think its in the wow-cant believe it isn't in the hot 100--catagory.

« **Reply #22 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:54:16 PM »

I'm facinated that a few of my favourites are overrated.

Muirfield
Portmarnock
Pinehurst#2

Each one lacks on the prettiness end of things but is very long on architectural lessons. Interestingly I would list two of three on my most inportant 10 courses to go and visit to understand the possibilities and principles of golf course architecture.

I'm by no means dismissing any of the opinions, but I find it wonderful how we can all see the same course so very differently. I see this as a good thing, since a shared vision would lead to very dull golf architecture.

and to play along........

overrated and underrated:

LA CC versus Riviera. LACC can't touch Riviera for variety and shot selection, or even the quality of the routing. They compare well because of similar locations and architecture.

« **Reply #23 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:55:45 PM »

My personal Overrateds-

Pebble (6, 6 and 6. blah/ok-good/fantastic)
Somerset Hills (great example of an architects work, just not a great course for thin faced drivers and Pro v1s)

Underrateds-

Stanford

« **Reply #24 on:** August 07, 2006, 02:58:45 PM »

Overrated: [here on this site]

Everything old, flat, fast and firm, treeless, walkable, and brown!

Underrated: [here on this site]

Courses with vertical flavor, verdant green, target areas, moderately slow greens, and expansive physical beauty, and most especially trees.

As I have previously stated, I love a lot of the 1st type, just love the second type also. Eclecticism is the true philosophy of golf architecture IMHO. Take what the land gives you, and improve it with your human insight.

News:

T.J. Sturges

Peter Pratt

brad_miller

Andrew Thomson

Matt_Ward

Cory Lewis

Ed Tilley

PThomas

Wayne Freeman

Patrick_Mucci

Brad Tufts

Brian Cenci

Geoffrey Childs

tlavin

Tommy_Naccarato

Tommy Williamsen

Scott Stearns

T.J. Sturges

Tiger_Bernhardt

Tommy_Naccarato

Geoffrey Childs

Scott Stearns

Ian Andrew

Scott Stearns

Doug Ralston