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Patrick_Mucci

Diagonal ridges in the green,
« on: July 26, 2006, 09:06:29 PM »
do they present a prefered challenge to approach, recovery and putting ?

And, why don't we see more of them in modern day designs ?

Diagonal ridges force the golfer to carefully select their approach shot, in terms of distance, shape and trajectory.

These same ridges are an impediment to easy recoveries should the golfer find themselves on the wrong side of them.

And, having to putt over or along them presents another substantive challenge.

With this many tactical assets, why don't we see more of these very simple features ?
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Brent Hutto

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2006, 09:22:19 PM »
There are a couple very basic green features that add interest to any course. Diagonal ridges, especially if the green is canted slightly to one side or the other to help the ball work away from the ridge on that side, can be used a lot. Greens that tilt away from the oncoming shot are another favorite although maybe you wouldn't want to use that too often.

When I play on a course with no diagonal ridges and no greens sloping away I always think that's a missed opportunity no matter how many other contours might be in places on various greens.

A favorite idiom of mine is a bunker in front of either the left or right half of the green and then a diagonal ridge starting at the corner of the bunker and angling away from the bunker side and toward the back of the green. This maximizes the ability to make the hole play easier (cut on the non-bunker side) or harder (cut behind the bunker) on different days which is a big plus in my book.

Which brings up another thought. To me a big bonus feature in a course design is when the "hardest hole on the course" can change from day to day depending on where the holes are cut. On some courses there's one killer Par 4 per nine that's long and/or uphill and/or with a lot of hazards or a severely protected green. So day in and day out that's the hardest hole for both the scratch and bogey player. Much better is when there are a couple of tough Par 4's and you don't necessarily know which is going to be the killer until you see the day's setup. Diagonal ridges and plateau greens are two ways of maximizing the day-to-day difficulty variation.
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Craig Disher

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2006, 09:31:58 PM »
Pat,
I think the feature would create too many complaints about its "unfairness."  I posted a picture a few days ago of a par-3 hole at Knole Park in the UK that has a ridge that's just as you describe. My partner and I were on the wrong side and it took a one-in-a-hundred miracle chip for him to par the hole (the hole was cut fairly close to the ridge). I was closer yet took a 5. We were both within 30 feet of the hole.

If we'd been within 30 feet on another quadrant, we would have had reasonable putts for birdie. But that's the point - put pressure on the tee shot or approach so that even a very good chip may not be enough to save par.
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Scott Witter

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2006, 09:38:02 PM »
Patrick:

I kinda like them as I used them on holes 2, 3, 5, 7, 12, 16 & 18 on our Arrowhead Golf Club in various ways.  That may seem like a lot of ridges, but the degree of slope, the angle to the line of play, front left to back right or visa versa for example, the transition from front to back, the tie in to other contours and the pinning area they establish or protect depending on the case at hand, leaves me and the golfers options to create fun and challenge.  I also like to incorporate a few run out areas toward the back left or right of a putting surface based on and balanced against the ridges mentioned.  of course this is all taken into consideration with other features used such as bunkers etc.  It gets them every time when they go after the pin and watch their ball side out the back door.  The interesting part becomes how to build them so they don't look as though they actually run away from play and disguise them to fit in to the remaining contour.

Brent:  "To me a big bonus feature in a course design is when the "hardest hole on the course" can change from day to day depending on where the holes are cut."  I would agree with this statement and at courses such as Arrowhead with a wide open windy element and strong prevailing breezes here in western NY, each hole can and usually does play quite different and even different again depending on the season. Now we have the summer winds from the southwest and west and then in the spring and fall we often get north/northest winds and it really gets interesting.
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Scott Witter

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2006, 09:40:44 PM »
Craig:

The scenario you mention sounds more like a maintenance issue with respect to where the cup was cut as opposed to the playability at hand.  And please, don't use the word fair or unfair in golf...it realy rubs me the wrong way. ;)
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2006, 09:41:44 PM »
Personal opinion - the diagonals waste too much cupping space compared to a ridge, tier, whatever that crosses the green close to 90 degrees.  You are left with a small triangle of space near the edge that most feel is unfair, it isn't use the green is effectively too small.  Most projects can't afford to build more green than is absolutely necessary.

Agreed that it is one of the great features in golf. Frankly, good players don't look at surrouding hazards, at least not when playing well. They look at green contours to fashion approaches, and diagonal ridges on the green edge, coming 1/2 to2/3 across the green are a challenge.

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Brent Hutto

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2006, 09:54:56 PM »
Scott,

Good point about the wind. I played three rounds at Deal on my England trip and the wind was only slightly different each round, i.e. it was never quite "reversed" but just variations in the south, southeast and southwest. It was amazing how little difference in direction it takes to significantly impact certain holes.

The first hole at Deal has that little creek or ditch in front of the green. It can be just about completely out of play or a major factor (requiring a layup from shorter hitters) with just a 30-degree shift in the direction a 10-15mph breeze. The tee shot on the eleventh hole seems like the fairway's a mile wide if the wind swings around more or less behind you but a straight crosswind will make you glad you're not playing stroke play.

And a few days earlier down the coast at Littlestone, a pleasant walk in the park in calm conditions became...well, a pleasant walk with a lot more strokes taken on the closing holes when a bit of breeze came up in the afternoon round. Well before that point in the round there's that Par 3 where a modest amount of wind can make a two or three club difference depending on velocity and exact direction. In fact, that's one advantage of Littlestone's classic "all points of the compass" routing for the one-shotters. If you play in different winds you might have a different idea of which one is toughest (they're all tough to me, though).

Craig Disher,

The hole at the far end of the course near the road? The one with the ridge along the right side that you need to hug? Must be the eighth. I would think the same direction of wind (right to left and hurting) that makes it harder to hug the right side actually makes the approach shot easier if you end up down the left. Or am I remembering the strategy there wrong?
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Brent Hutto

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2006, 10:01:11 PM »
Jeff,

I wish I had a postable diagram of the eighteenth (original ninth) hole at my club. It has a slightly serpentine and somewhat diagonal ridge running from well right of center in the front of the green to just left of center in the back but it gets to be a broader ridge toward the back and is only a sharply defined feature in its front 15 feet or so.

The only part of the green it would render hard to use is the area immediately over the front-right bunker (a deep one with a considerable lip) which is a little too tucked anyway for most purposes. The green is pretty darned wide and the entire left half is usable as is the back right and middle right, just not front right. Even back center is pinnable because the ridge broadens out. It's a work of art in my opinion.

The rest of the hole is straightforward with a fairly wide fairway and a big bunker enroaching 1/3 of the way across the fairway from the left rough at just short of most people's landing area (and just beyond my usual landing area). So it has a very basic strategy of safe down the right but greenside bunker right except the ridge through the green makes it one of the best holes on the course.
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2006, 11:11:39 PM »
Great timing Patrick.

Spanish Bay has a plethora of these diagonal ridge features, on almost every green.

Maybe that's why we don't see more of them?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 11:12:01 PM by Adam Clayman »
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Doug Siebert

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2006, 01:05:38 AM »
They can do wonders for the interest of a fairway as well, and just choosing a direction for the diagonal can totally change the complexion of the hole for someone who draws/hooks the ball versus someone who fades/slices it.  Properly utilized, it can provide the 'turbo boost' effect on a tee shot, but it is equally likely it could stop a drive in its tracks or kick it at a sharp angle into the rough or worse.

Unfortunately the possibility of the ball ending up on it and being left with an uneven lie in the fairway is more than some golfers can handle so I suspect such features are typically treated as a negative on a piece of land to be routed around or beat into submission with heavy equipment.  Because I see them in the rough well off the line of play a lot more often than I see them in the fairway on modern courses (of course the fact I notice them way out there at all says something about how useful/effective they might be on me and my game ;))
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ForkaB

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2006, 01:14:23 AM »
The best green I've ever played has a diagonal ridge, but one of the things that makes it great is how the ridge integrates into and influences the rest of the hole.  It also requires fast and firm conditions to really shine.  Perhaps the building of such a hole is too complex for modern day architects or their customers and/or the appropriate land is just not available.  You can't really build such a ridge, you need to find it, IMHO.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2006, 06:47:12 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on July 26, 2006, 09:41:44 PM

Personal opinion - the diagonals waste too much cupping space compared to a ridge, tier, whatever that crosses the green close to 90 degrees.

Jeff, a ridge, irrespective of its angular orientation uses an identical amount of green space.

It doesn't matter if it runs from 12-6, 2-8, or 4-10, the amount of green space taken up is identical.

And, it's not as if the ridge is created in a vacuum.
The size and height of the ridge should be integrated with the size of the green.

You are left with a small triangle of space near the edge that most feel is unfair, it isn't use the green is effectively too small.  

Why would you be left with a small triangle of space if the diagonal runs across the entire green, unless you're referencing the location where the ridge meets the fringe ?

As you get very close to the edge, noone cups that location, so why worry about that space ?

Most projects can't afford to build more green than is absolutely necessary.

What does that mean ?

Compromise design to reduce costs ?

Make every green flat ?

That philosophy will come back to haunt the owner/developer since it dictates bland design, and uninteresting, unchallenging golf, ergo, less play.

Agreed that it is one of the great features in golf.

Then, why not incorporate it in the design process ?

Frankly, good players don't look at surrouding hazards, at least not when playing well. They look at green contours to fashion approaches, and diagonal ridges on the green edge, coming 1/2 to2/3 across the green are a challenge.

To some, perhaps the more skilled, the diagonal and its influence on play are obvious, others never figure it out, but, the feature promotes challenge, interest and fun, and as such, should be more abundant than it is.

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Craig Disher

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2006, 09:17:47 AM »
Brent,
The hole you remember is the 8th. A right to left facing wind is a rarity - usually occurring on an otherwise calm day when a differential develops between sea and land temperature. The locals call it a sea fret. The prevailing wind is straight down the fairway which makes for a difficult approach - as you might remember from the shape and orientation of the green on the dune. I think the hole plays much easier into a moderate breeze.

Scott Witter

"..." was an attempt at irony. I don't find much unfair in golf. The setup wasn't a maintenance issue. We just hit our approaches to the wrong place.
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Brent Hutto

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2006, 09:28:24 AM »
Craig,

Thanks for the refresher. My sense of direction was a bit turned around at that end of the course. If the drive ends up well back in the fairway and toward the left then without a breeze in your face (and/or from the right) most players would be pretty much stuck. Not a beautiful hole, just a brutally effective strategic one. It's particularly daunting when you've just butchered the easy seventh, as I can testify.
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Craig Disher

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2006, 03:19:35 PM »
Brent,
MacKenzie's original design was even more formidable. The green stretched nearly to the mound on the right and the sharp ridge cut diagonally across the middle. Now it's more of a false front. I may have shown you the photograph in the clubhouse taken on the opening day of Mac's changes. Here's what it was like then



and from a recent photo taken from about the same spot. I believe there was a cross bunker just left of the golfer in the old photo. It's gone now. The fairway probably extended much closer to the road on the left offering a safer tee shot. However, the approach from that side was well guarded.

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Brent Hutto

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2006, 03:37:49 PM »
Yes I do remember that picture from the clubhouse. I hadn't noticed what looks like stripe mowing of the green in the old photo.

For my game the current version of the green probably plays somewhat similarly since I'd most likely elect to putt from a bit short and right. However, it also looks like they treated the big rise at the back left as putting surface rather than letting it grow into rough. Downwind that's pretty brutal in that a righty hook could bounce over the old version of the back of the green pretty easily.

But anyway, I don't recall us hitting any shots from way left when we played. What I do recall is that a putt from the back right of the green wants to stay in that gully between the diagonal ridge and upslope toward the back of the green (rather than breaking much back toward the fairway as I read it). So does the green play with any bathtub effect tending to capture shots from the left and contain them in the middle of the green? Or will a longish approach shot (from the left) run along the oblique axis and exit the green at back left?
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2006, 05:32:39 PM »
Pat,

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.......
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BCrosby

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2006, 05:53:35 PM »
The 5th green at Sand Hills has a great diagonal ridge.

Rich -

I'll bite. Where is the "greatest green" you've ever played?

Bob
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ForkaB

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2006, 06:27:13 PM »
Where else, Bob?

The 4th at Dornoch. :o
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peter_p

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2006, 06:33:10 PM »
  A couple of years ago the Isleworth/Lake Nona interclub match showed a green with two parallel diagonal swales.
Thought it was great then, still do now.
  I always appreciate diagonals. They challenge both direction and length.  
 
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John_Cullum

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Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2006, 09:34:12 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on July 27, 2006, 05:32:39 PM
Pat,

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.......

THAT is post of the year!!!
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T_MacWood

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2006, 10:00:47 PM »
That is an amazing illustration of the past and current version of the Littlestone green.

A green feature that I like that you don't see often is the spine that runs from front to back...parallel to the line of play. Depending on which side of the spine the hole is placed, and the character of the hazard that may guard that side of the green, the spine adds a new demension to the choice of going at the flag and challenging the hazard or playing safe away from the hole and on the other side of the spine.

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TEPaul

Re:Diagonal ridges in the green,
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2006, 09:07:15 AM »
"Pat,
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you......."

My Goodness, Gracious, Great Balls of Fire---

that most certainly does perfectly capture the inscrutability of Patrick Mucci. That should perhaps be cut and pasted onto the front page of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.
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