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Mike Nuzzo

How many trees to leave?
« on: July 24, 2006, 12:11:47 PM »
I have been surprised how challenging it has been for me to have nice mature trees cleared around the perimeters of holes on my current project.  I have been leaving many in place and letting my decisions evolve over time - often months - hopefully a good methodology clearing a little at a time.  Most clubs don't have this luxury, and fortunately if I leave too many, our friend Don Mahaffey, will make short work of my mistakes.

What is a good practice for a new course?

Clear too many trees and allow them to mature over the next 20-40 years?

Or clear just enough and hope the club has a good tree program?

Is the instant gratification, perfect on opening day, modern course setting itself up for long term tree problems?

Thanks
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Adam Clayman

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2006, 12:32:04 PM »
Mike, Personally, I'm not a fan of the sapling look. So, I like the deliberate method you've emplyed so far. Allowing time to tell, which should stay and which should go seems so prudent in this case. Also, giving Don, the authority to remove any others that might make his job eaiser, or be better for the turf, won't hurt bit.

On the other hand, if they are all desiduous, I know I wouldn't want to clean up that mess every fall.
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Steve Curry

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2006, 12:43:24 PM »
Mike,

Been wondering how the project is going.  Tillie had some sage words on that subject.  My vote is to make certain they are worthy of keeping, good health, good shape and well situated... otherwise use them for heat.

Best,
Steve
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PjW

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2006, 01:53:47 PM »
Mike,

Trees best left, are for framing the hole, safety mitigation and occassionly for depth perception; other than that they have no value other than to provide work for an already overly tasked maintenance staff.

Phil 8)
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RJ_Daley

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 02:03:23 PM »
Mike, I would think it is very dependant on species.  From what I have seen of limitted photos of your project, there doesn't seem to be many desirable trees.  If oak and nice stuff, I'd leave as much as you can justify for playing angles and corridors.  Then, whittle them back as progression of on-going play dictates.  Obviously, trees near tees and for respites of shade in your area are desirable.  Of course, you may have cottonwoods, which are a stinking mess.  There is the big trade off, shade and respite from heat for mess that needs to be dealt with seasonally.  

But, I'd keep as much of mature stock as possible.  Then whittle... ;) ;D
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mike_malone

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2006, 02:36:17 PM »
 One thing I have seen done recently (Beechtree, Lederach, and Hidden Creek) is the trimming up of the first two or three tree lines as one moves away from the fairway. I find this very appealing. Underneath is also cleared to allow one to find their ball and have a recovery shot. This works well when the trees are worth saving.
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Paul Richards

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2006, 02:38:23 PM »
It's best to leave as many hardwoods as you can - oaks and elms seem to be the best golf course trees, at least here in the midwest - to frame the holes, but remove the 'garbage trees' and others that might interfere with the healthy growth of your 'good' trees and your fairways, tees and greens.

 ;)
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RJ_Daley

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2006, 02:43:35 PM »
Careful not to run the dozer tracks near the root and drip line of what you want to keep.  Is there any decent stock for transplanting/relocating desirables.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2006, 02:56:09 PM »
I like shade...Try to leave a few trees near tees where people will park their carts.  Or sometimes I like walking over under the shade when people are putting out.  Shade is cool...
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Paul Richards

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2006, 03:09:55 PM »
>I like shade...Try to leave a few trees near tees where people will park their carts.  Or sometimes I like walking over under the shade when people are putting out.  Shade is cool...


Too funny.    ;D ;D ;D
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike Nuzzo

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2006, 03:16:59 PM »
RJ - The trees on site are mostly Live Oaks - and are very nice.  You can see a picture of the nursery in my last interview.

The ones I am referring to are the "framing" trees.
Some are too close to playing corridors and will be easy to take down.  Others are a more difficult decision.

I'm not asking for my project as I have all the time I need.  I'm asking because I won't have this much time again and I was surprised by how hard it is, unless you err to the conservative side (cut down extra).  I am curious to hear others experiences.

Has anyone seen any fine modern courses that have had too much tree growth over the last 20 or so years?

John,
There will be pleanty of shade trees by tees...


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Brian Phillips

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2006, 04:57:37 PM »
Mike,

The best advice that I have ever been given about trees is the same Graeme was given by Dave Thomas...

'If in doubt get it out'

You know yourself, deep down if a tree should come out...have the balls to do it now and you will not regret it.  A tree can screw up a tee, a green but a good design on a hole can replace 'nearly' any tree.

Get rid and get rid soon before it is too late...
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2006, 05:04:07 PM »
Mike,
I think your philosophy of culling when deemed necessary is perfect.

I love trees and hate to see them removed prematurely and be replaced with sapplings later on.
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Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 08:20:47 PM »
Quote from: mayday_malone on July 24, 2006, 02:36:17 PM
One thing I have seen done recently (Beechtree, Lederach, and Hidden Creek) is the trimming up of the first two or three tree lines as one moves away from the fairway. I find this very appealing. Underneath is also cleared to allow one to find their ball and have a recovery shot. This works well when the trees are worth saving.

This was done recently at Aronimink as well.
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Joe Hancock

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2006, 08:31:49 PM »
Mike,

The best thing you can do is express doubt concerning the removal of a tree to one of the equipment operators. Then, when you have no more than left the ranch the equipment operator will make up your mind for you.

Nothing could be easier.... ;D

Joe
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"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Paul Richards

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2006, 09:07:20 PM »
Just remember - you don't need to replace trees that were removed with saplings - you grow rough instead!  

It's amazing how well rough does when it isn't competing with trees !!!
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff_Brauer

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2006, 09:57:26 PM »
Mike,

Are you asking based on total width of corridor or whether to take out every other (or some %) in heavily wooded areas?

As to play corridors, I say in Houston 225' trunk to trunk is about the minimum with live oaks, and fits triple row systems kind of well. Near greens and tees, clear the east for morning sun to at least 70' away from the edge.

Based on my experience at Lake Jackson I would not presume the big live oaks are healthy.  If they have any kind of knots in them they are probably getting hollow and brittle inside.  That would make it easier to decide they should go.....
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Paul Richards

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 11:08:50 PM »
Jeff

>they are probably getting hollow and brittle inside.  That would make it easier to decide they should go.....


Good point.  Unhealthy trees need to be removed.  Not only do they get in the way of the healthy trees, but they are also a liability issue.


Best to lose those right away.

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mike_beene

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2006, 11:11:04 PM »
Trees are more valuable for sun protection in this part of the world.The Old Course would be dangerous and miserable in a Texas summer.I am not saying ruin holes,but dont remove trees just because it makes sense elsewhere.I assume your owner wants a year round course,although you couldnt blame him if he wanted to shut it down July and August.
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Mike Nuzzo

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2006, 01:27:08 PM »
It was quite timely to read the recent Doak article...

Quote
"And though he’s no tree-hugger, Doak certainly dislikes giving the order to cut down healthy specimens. “Felling trees is one of the hardest parts of my job,” he admits, wincing as he observes the swift and almost clinical decimation of a stand of pines near Rock Creek’s 8th tee. “I don’t like doing it, and it’s contrary to minimalism, but sometimes it’s necessary.” The reality is, Doak’s first consideration is always to build a great golf course but, he adds, the trick is to do it as unobtrusively and inexpensively as possible.

It’s an approach he clearly feels would right a lot of America’s course-design wrongs. “Everything is going towards standardization here,” he laments. “The rules are becoming stricter on how golf is supposed to look and what people are supposed to score. Courses are therefore becoming more and more alike. They’ve got to be so many yards, and have so many par-5s, par-4s and par-3s. And most clubs are lengthening their courses in response to what they see on television.”

What I am asking is what are the general principals when taking down trees (not for my current project):
Take down too many to ensure they won't encroach, or painfully pick and choose over time.

I was thinking of a course I played and the architect told me he wished he had taken down more trees during construction.  The course was 20+ years old and had too many trees.  I assumed he designed it in a finished state hoping the corridors would be maintained.

Don Mahafey astutely pointed out that the perimeter trees, which used to compete in the middle of a forrest, are now free and will usually take advantage of their new found resources.  A good reason to play it a little safe.

Jeff B,
The second paragraph was for you...  :)
I'm not trying to create consistent corridors.

Cheers
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Jeff_Brauer

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2006, 08:01:54 PM »
Mike,

I agree. No problem to add sprinklers where wider, and narrow up a few areas by going to two rows.  At Wild Wing, for example, the Owners rep was amazed at how much more care I took to creating wavy tree corridors, leaving "lone soldiers" etc. than the other gca's designing courses there.  Maybe thats a reason my course is the one they are keeping as they turn the rest into housing developments..... ;)

But you can cost an owner a lot of money by not considering the basic coverage area of your irrigation system.  And you can kill trees by blowing the bark off them with sprinklers, or simply overwatering the roots compared to what they were used to before, so you MUST consider irrigation together with clearing for best long term results.

My other point was that live oak corridors generally must be wider trunk to trunk than pine corridors because of their canopy girth. A 200' wide corridor in pines probably plays similarly to a 225' corridor in oaks.  

As to your question about taking them out or picking and choosing over time, I have never had too much problem deciding which to take out.  As far as I am concerned, a professional golf course architect should be able to make those kinds of decisions correctly up front - not cause the hassle of waiting to see, even if there are always a few tough cases.

And I have touched on the things I consider, like shade, air circulation, the general width. Of course, tree location plays a part - if its right off a tee and can't be negotiated, I figure it will come out later, for example.

That's the kind of thing the experience of designing 50 courses teaches you. It ain't always the theory, its the details of execution that make a course acceptable, good, or a stand out.  And I presumed that was the heart of your question.......
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Adam Clayman

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2006, 01:38:39 AM »


Before we moved out of Farmington, the city's Landscape designer/architect told us they were learning new things about how root systems work. Specifically how much more of a factor they are, then previously thought.

I'll bet nothing wrecks a reel faster than a root.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 09:50:26 AM by Adam Clayman »
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Dan_Lucas

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2006, 08:03:38 AM »
I know it's a lot easier to take them out during construction than after opening. Do it while you have the big iron there.

At Kingsley we left a lot of trees on the back nine in response to an ownership directive. After fighting pythium on the back nine fairways the first hot summer, we have been cutting trees ever since. We took down close to 70% of the trees bordering holes that first fall (2001) and last fall had to clear another 50%. As Don said the canopies do fill in when you create space for them

With trees that size, removing them involves renting equipment and doing damage to healthy turf. Then the repaired areas never look quite like the original seeding.

Make sure the east-south exposures are well cleared. Nothing promotes disease like holding dew till noon.
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Joe Hancock

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2006, 12:28:24 PM »
Quote from: Dan_Lucas on July 29, 2006, 08:03:38 AM
I know it's a lot easier to take them out during construction than after opening. Do it while you have the big iron there.

At Kingsley we left a lot of trees on the back nine in response to an ownership directive. After fighting pythium on the back nine fairways the first hot summer, we have been cutting trees ever since. We took down close to 70% of the trees bordering holes that first fall (2001) and last fall had to clear another 50%. As Don said the canopies do fill in when you create space for them

With trees that size, removing them involves renting equipment and doing damage to healthy turf. Then the repaired areas never look quite like the original seeding.

Make sure the east-south exposures are well cleared. Nothing promotes disease like holding dew till noon.

Dan,

You're a real tree hater, aren't you? After all, it appears you have cleared 120% of the trees that bordered holes!

Work with me here...I know what you meant! ;D

You also forgot to figure in the high paid labor to repair that damaged turf, not to mention the impulsive addition of bunkers...and tees...and..and.... :o

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Dan_Lucas

Re:How many trees to leave?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2006, 09:11:24 AM »
Joe

With DeVries around 120% isn't nearly enough. ;D
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