At a course I'm familiar with, a discussion occured amongst older, long time members, regarding the British Open at Hoylake, the condition of the golf course, and the condition of the golf course we were playing.

One of the golfers asked, "why can't we get our fairways firm and fast ?  Why can't we get them yellowish-brownish-green ?

Some responded that the course we were playing used to be that way prior to the introduction of an AUTOMATED irrigation system.

Prior to that installation, an irrigation system existed, but, it was operated manually, probably on a needs basis.

Most of these golfers, in their 60's and 70's like the concept of roll or run.  Most of them recollected how it used to be.
Most of them grew up with browned out roughs and off color fairways in the summer, and most of them grew up prior to color TV broadcasts of PGA Tour events every week.

The discussion finally turned to the ultimate question.

"How do we get the fairways and greens back to those conditions ?"

In light of the age of the leadership at most clubs and the leadership about to take the helm for the next 10-20 years, I don't see how there can be a return to brown-yellow-green, fast and firm fairways and greens.

I think today's conditions are generationally driven, and I don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon.

Sure, there are exceptions, but, in the large majority of private courses, and public ones too, lush, soft, green conditions, narrowed fairways, accompanied by flower beds and ornamental plantings seem to be the future of golf.

Are these conditions generationally driven ?

Can the status quo or trend be reversed ?

Or, do most people in control of golf courses view the British Open as a quaint anomaly ?
One they wouldn't want their course to mimic ?

Patrick,
   I would say that less than 1% of golfers (I'm guessing, so don't ask for proof ) , would want their course to look or play like Hoylake. Most golfers are annoyed if their ball even sniffs the green, but doesn't end up on it. I can only imagine how they would react to seeing their ball roll on the green and then get shouldered off for a shot a little off line.
    It probably is generational, with this generation consumed by greenspeeds, and the previous one with wall to wall green grass. I have no idea what the next generation has in mind, but I doubt it will be good for the game. I hope I'm wrong.

Pat, how's it going?  I was just going to type what Greg said.  I think it is an educational issue.  If all one is exposed to is green courses lined by trees and colored by planted flowers, then this is what one thinks golf is about.  This is how I thought as a beginning golfer.  It was my first trip to Ireland that showed me the light.  Ah, this is golf.  

I have suggested that the super and pro at my home club actually hold semi-annual sessions on golf club architecture so that the members can be exposed to the history, theory and roots of golf.

Without the education, and clearly few people take the time to read on their own, it is too easy for golfers to scoff at the brown conditions and call it ugly and unappealing.

Last week in England, I was 80 yards from the green and I asked the caddie for an 8 iron on the first hole.  He looked at me very oddly.  I proceeded to run the ball up on to the middle of the green.  He turned and said, "that was a very un-American shot".

We put over 600,000 gal. of water on my course every night, yet the conditions are firm and fast...we have brown grass, yellow grass...and green grass...the green speed is around 10....from what the golfers tell me, they love the conditions....

Ulrich,

Brown, or yellow-brown-green fairways have been part of parkland golf courses for decades if not a century.

Automated sprinkler systems have greened those fairways, not mother nature.

Ed Getka,

Looking like Hoylake would be an extreme, but, yellowish-brownish-greenish fairways are ideal for playability.

I think the concept of "fairness" is contrary to Hoylake type conditions, and that too may be an impediment.

Pete Galea,

Having the ability to produce those conditions and having the "will" to produce those conditions are two different things.

It seems that everybody has the ability in terms of technology, but, do they have the directive or the freedom to produce those conditions ?

Mike Policano,

I'm fine.
How are you.

Is it an educational process or an indoctrinational process ?

The educational process will take ages.
Indoctrinization takes a lot less time.

Craig Sweet,

The golf course I was referencing is about 80 years old and was designed to be played fast and firm, as were most older golf courses.

There are only two greens with fronting hazards and one's a tiny creek fronting a short par 5 and the other is a pond on a relatively short par 3 from an elevated tee.

Tom Doak,

I think your generation, and the one immediately below have been most influenced by televised golf, and each successive generation is further removed from the roots of golf, both in the U.S. and in the U.K.

The context of my thread had more to do with "memberships" than enteprenuers/developers.

Even my generation has been bombarded by televised golf over the last 36 years that promotes a product alien to that which you and I  and the GCA.com crowd crave.

Gary:

The Rawls is one of the firmest courses anywhere, and it's pretty fast on the downwind holes, too.

"In light of the age of the leadership at most clubs and the leadership about to take the helm for the next 10-20 years, I don't see how there can be a return to brown-yellow-green, fast and firm fairways and greens.

I think today's conditions are generationally driven, and I don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon.

Sure, there are exceptions, but, in the large majority of private courses, and public ones too, lush, soft, green conditions, narrowed fairways, accompanied by flower beds and ornamental plantings seem to be the future of golf.

Are these conditions generationally driven ?

Can the status quo or trend be reversed ?"

Patrick:

It not only can be reversed, it is being reversed. Almost everywhere I go these days (to talk about this kind of thing) these clubs are into this idea and they are most certainly both studying it and attempting to put it into effect, if they haven't to some degree already. The list is getting longer every day as more clubs become impressed by what other clubs who've done it ahead of them are accomplishing.

The Creek is a good example and their golf and green chairman are of this new generation.

But when a club decides to transition to this type of playability and look they do need to do their homework about what-all the "transition" will require on their particular course. It's not rocket science but it's definitely not as simple as just suddenly turning the water off or down significantly.

It does take a couple of years or three to transition agronomy over from years of over irrigation and chemical dependencies and the types of grass, the soil makeup, the amount of play VS maintenance necessities like tyning, aeriating, veriticutting and a leaner regime need to be factored in. Sometimes the decision to reseed greens or other areas needs to be considered to get something on there that adapts to dryness better (poa greens are something of a problem (if a club does not have a large man-power crew and budget) as poa is essentially a "wet" grass).

There's a lot of understanding and a number of components that needs to go into transitioning to firmer and faster but I see so many clubs doing it now and others getting interested in doing it.

As usual, Patrick, you are about 2-3 years behind me in most everything you say and discuss on here, particularly this subject. Call it firmer and faster, call it browning out some or a lighter shade of green, call it the Ideal Maintenance Meld or call it whatever you want to call it, but it is happening all over the place and its exciting because essentially the "playability" is pretty much of a win/win situation amongst the levels of players (with only a very few remaining little niggly obstacles of overcome).

What you probably need to do, Pat, is come up to the head of the classroom and start to pay more attention and listen better, instead of sitting in the back and carrying on a bunch of useless yaking and arguing, as per usual.  

In other words, start to pay better attention and you may find you don't really need to start some of these threads because GOLFCLUBATLAS's archives are replete with them.

What is interesting to discuss, though, are the various components and the degree of them that go into all this in both the context of maintenance practices and how that relates to this playability on various golf courses.

Tom

If you had really fast and firm fairways (a la Hoylake or just about any British links right now) many US courses would be unplayable.  It would be impossible to keep a drive out of the creek on the 5th fairway at Merion or on the proper fairway at any of a number of holes at Olympic.  Fast and firm on heavily sloped sites just does not compute.  The ideal maintenance for most great US parkland courses is fastish and firmish.  IMO, of course.

Tommy

You forget those good old days when I was trying to coax out of you exactly the thoughts you expressed above, because I knew them then and you were just learning.  From time to time, you stray, and that is why I have to give you a little tweak to get you back on the straight and narrow.  However, if you really want to talk fast and firm, Grasshopper, you really need to spend more time in GBI.  You just can't get it sitting in Philadelphia or thinking back to the good old days with the good old boys at Talledega.

"Tommy
You forget those good old days when I was trying to coax out of you exactly the thoughts you expressed above, because I knew them then and you were just learning.  From time to time, you stray, and that is why I have to give you a little tweak to get you back on the straight and narrow.  However, if you really want to talk fast and firm, Grasshopper, you really need to spend more time in GBI.  You just can't get it sitting in Philadelphia or thinking back to the good old days with the good old boys at Talledega."

Rich:

Believe me, you definitely did not teach me my maintenance meld philosophy or a firm and fast philosophy and either did links golf.

I learned it right here in America and I distinctly remember the place and even the time when it all came together. Although I don't recall ever talking to him about it specifically if anyone was responsible I'd have to say it was probably Karl Olsen and what he did at NGLA.

NGLA is in America, isn't it grasshopper?  

TEPaul,

Your overly simplistic and unrealistic approach doesn't account for clubs where the budget may be stretched or the superintendent in the defensive mode.  And, it doesn't account for those clubs where those in charge are advocates of the conditions they see on TV year after year.
You choose to ignore the culture of golf in America today.

U.S. golf courses don't just want lush, green, aerial conditions, they crave and pursue them.

As to my methods of getting things done, they were highly successful when I was involved.

As of about three years ago, I no longer care.
 
Let the inmates, the uninformed and the unqualified run the asylum.  

Let them produce an inferior product, one that's contrary to the architectural intent.  It makes me appreciate courses and superintendents that "get it right" all the more, even though they're in the great minority.

You see golf moving in one direction, I see it moving in another, and the direction I see is dictated by those with little or no connection to golf, its history, its architecture and its traditions.

Is Shinnecock restoring their fairway widths ?
Will Merion return their fairway widths to their pre-Open configuration or further narrow them for the next Open ?
Will Baltusrol continue to narrow the field of play by moving their bunkers to match their newly narrowed fairways ?
Will PV continue to allow benign neglect to impact the lines of play, will they continue to lengthen the golf course as they have recently ?

And, what impact will the movement in the above direction have on local clubs.

NGLA is a rarity, a wonderful throwback to an age when golf was played as it was meant to be, brought about by the genius of an unusual personality and wonderful curators.   And while there are some terrific new golf courses, such as Sand Hills, the courses at Bandon, Sebonack and Hidden Creek and others, they're in the great minority.

Visit the courses of the GAP and the MGA and tell me how many have yellowish-brownish-greenish fairways and greens today.

When their number exceeds the number of emerald green golf courses, then, and only then will I think that golf in America is moving in the right direction.

Pat Mucci....you asked:

"Tom Doak,

When someone hires you, aren't they preprogramed to getting a predicted product when it comes to playing conditions ?

I wouldn't think that a developer thinks you're going to create lakes, fountains, waterfalls, etc., etc.."

What do lakes, fountains, waterfalls, etc.,etc have to do with playing conditions?