[Kevin Edwards]

Retraction anyone?    Will anyone at GD dissect their preview and how the Open actually played?


The best player in the world wins.. The leaderboard stuffed with top players.. Winning score respectible especially given the course/wind conditions.  Strategic dissection by Woods shows the way, the bunkering dominated how to play the course..

Do you think Ron Whitten regrets his article?  I would guess what they said on ABC is right, the R&A will revisit here in the rota 5-6 years hence..

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Just like Ron's review of The Good Doctor Returns.......He just didn't get it.

Ron maybe should thiink about changing his Wrong Whitten...

Just joking Ron!

[Geoffrey Childs]

Inky fisted peasant

[John Kavanaugh]

Inky fisted peasant

What the hell does that mean...I have been told time and time again that if I say one remark questioning anything Brad Klein says I will be thown off this board.  Yet you Golfweek guys jump on Ron Whitten every chance you get...We need more architectural writers like Ron who are not afraid to lay it on the line and take a chance.  You guys claim to want that...Just not from your rival mag.  I miss Ron's imput on this site...thanks.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
Well since you opened this door....

At every aspect you've gone after Brad and others from every aspect of their religion and politics, sometimes in a most bizarre form and way. It has no place. I've asked you not to go there because of the way you look like an ass when you do so. I now this from being an ass myself.

And I do agree with you, we miss Ron Whitten's presence, and that was his choice.

[Craig Sweet]

The head of the R&A just called the course conditions this week "splended" and Tiger called them "fantastic"....I would agree.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I would guess what they said on ABC is right, the R&A will revisit here in the rota 5-6 years hence..

Given that there are about 9 courses (Carnoustie, St. Andrews, Troon, Muirfield, Turnberry, Lytham, Birkdale, Hoylake, Sandwich) currently on the rota, and St. Andrews hosts the tournament every 5 years then it will be about 10 years between visits at each site, would it not?

[Matt_Cohn]

Ron Whitten might, say, "The winner hit his driver once in 72 holes, and even that one wasn't necessary. And he still shot 18 under par. If that doesn't meet the criteria for being "outdated" for modern majors, then what does?"

Not agreeing or disagreeing, just presenting the other side of the case. It's a very simple and reasonable argument to claim that Hoylake does not fully test the modern game. You may or may not agree, but it's a very reasonable argument to make.

[Craig Sweet]

The BEST golfers were at the top of the leaderboard....who cares whether they were +5 or -18....Tiger had a plan, he stuck with it and hit his shots...like he said, he was pin high on nearly every green and that is quite a feat on a links course with those conditions....in other words he controled the flight of the ball...and isn't THAT what its all about?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
good to see a well-balanced counter in this.

Truthfully I've only seen excerpts of Ron's critique of Hoylake. But have read more by others critiquing that critique. Have you ever seen the press go after a fellow journalist in the same manner?

I haven't.

And I think that's the point of Kevin's thread.

I've agreed and disagreed on a lot of stuff Ron Whitten has written over the years, more have just been puzzled by some of his more blazing critiques--like of Hidden Creek, where he calls himself a friend of Bill Coore and then proceeds with another architect (Steven Kay) to rip and tear into Bill's work.

Or

....how he took on the persona of a New York Times book critic on his review of Geoff Shackelford's The Good Doctor Returns. Like the book or not, the review wasn't about the book as much as Ron made it personal attack on an up and coming writer in Golf Digest.

This was in the early days of the internet, in fact Golf Club Atlas didn't even exist at that time. Many of us challenged that critique on traditionalgolf.com, which Ron even wrote back to me in an email, "I stand by my review..." It was smug, abrassive and mostly demonstrative of just how petty Ron could get.

Personally, I don't think he liked the fact that others could respond to this kind of critique on the internet. It didn't agree with his opinion. Frankly I don't think Ron would ever have intentions of being a full-time participant here.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I forgot to add that in defense of Ron, he saw the postives of Rustic Canyon, thus putting aside those same petty jealousies he had with Geoff.

And while it may seem like I only agree with Ron when he agrees with me, I will attest if it wasn't for The Golf Course I wouldn't be typing this now. For that I'm eternally grateful.

[Robert Thompson]

Inky fisted peasant

For those who apparently missed it or were not watching, this was Peter Alliss' comment on those who critiqued the course prior to the open. While I don't entirely agree with Whitten's take, I must admit that taking the driver out of the hands of the best player in the world did not make for the most interesting viewing. There was little risk taking all week, and while I agree that Tiger's play and strategy was exceptional, you have to wonder what happened to hitting every club in the bag.... this wasn't a course that required that. Bring back Muirfield or a British Open course that actually requires a broad variety of shots that don't include 40 2-irons.

[Craig Sweet]

Wow! Bitch and moan when its driver... wedge and -20 and bitch and moan when its two iron...four iron and -18....I don't get it?

[Brian Phillips]

Robert,

The design of the course did not take the driver out of his hands it was the weather....nature...it just became too hard to risk it as he explained on BBC.

He said in practice rounds he was hitting 400 yard drives that he just could not control after the bounce so he decided to use irons.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

If you want to take that simple and reasonable side of the debate, I'll be glad to thrash you.  Your only argument could be, essentially, that links golf is not modern golf.  Everyone in the field had an opportunity to bomb and gouge their way around Hoylake, Tiger included.  The rough wasn't that severe of a penalty.  But anyone driving it long and crooked would have had trouble with the contours at the sides of the greens.  

The best way to come into those greens was straight into the front where the ball had more leeway before it got away to either side.  Tiger figured that out in about 24 hours, most of the rest of the field got there by Sunday.

Tommy:

Geoff has nothing to do with this thread.  Maybe you should have put aside your "petty jealousies" in the first post instead of the second.

[Robert Thompson]

Robert,

The design of the course did not take the driver out of his hands it was the weather....nature...it just became too hard to risk it as he explained on BBC.

He said in practice rounds he was hitting 400 yard drives that he just could not control after the bounce so he decided to use irons.

I understand, but I don't think that made the final round any more exciting. No real rough, internal out of bounds and rock hard fairways should have exacted some sort of intriguing play. It didn't. The final round was dull, with the exception of a few key putts by DiMarco. Typical hole -- 2-iron, 8-iron to 30 feet, two putts. Dull.

[MikeJones]

Any Open course plus little wind and dry conditions would have played in a similar way. Hoylake is NOT too easy by any stretch of the imagination and I've seen first hand it in both benign and tough conditions.

What the Open rota courses do year in year out is provide interesting and strategic golf which is wonderful to watch.

As for Tiger hitting irons off the tee for the most part, virtually everyone else was hitting some sort of wood. Tiger is just so good that he can hit his long irons from the tees and still be able to hit into those pins with long and medium irons. Didn't Nicklaus do the same at Muirfield in 66?

[CHrisB]

Question: Take every other course in the Open rota, put them under the same conditions as Royal Liverpool was this week (dry, fast, no real rough, no real wind) and how different would the winning scores be?

[Paul Richards]

Ron's article was quite harsh on Hoylake and made a jab at Olympia Fields as well.

I think both of these courses stood up quite well and gave us outstanding champions.

Welcome back to the rota, Hoylake!!

[Jim Nugent]

Ron Whitten might, say, "The winner hit his driver once in 72 holes, and even that one wasn't necessary. And he still shot 18 under par. If that doesn't meet the criteria for being "outdated" for modern majors, then what does?"

Not agreeing or disagreeing, just presenting the other side of the case. It's a very simple and reasonable argument to claim that Hoylake does not fully test the modern game. You may or may not agree, but it's a very reasonable argument to make.

Matt, Gary Player made a similar point, though he took it in a different direction.  He said the guys could hit iron off the tee, and still be left with mid or short iron into the green.  He thinks if you tee with an iron, you should have wood or long iron left.  

But his complaint was not with the course.  It was with today's turbo-charged ball.  He wants to see the ball ratcheted back 50 yards.  

[Tom_Doak]

All of you guys who want to see drivers off the tee tested and long iron approaches tested -- you do realize you are asking for an 8,200 yard golf course, don't you?

[Matt_Ward]

My issue resides more with Digest than Ron Whitten. I would hope the game's leading publication (at least the total numbers & ad dollars say that) would provide a genuine outlet for real architectural critique than what you are getting now.

Ron Whitten is now moving more and more in the active design field. I have opined on this beforehand and said that one can't be a critic (umpire) and a designer (player) at the same time. And the idea that one simply needs to disclose the situation in order for those relationships to continue is also flat out wrong. What does one do? To you recuse yourself from frank comments because of a future desire to possibly work with someone who is in the field now. If one has to recuse oneself to any great degree the purpose in having a critic who can provide candid comments then becomes compromised.

I enjoyed what Ron had to say in his BO course analysis although I am stil wondering if Ron has ever played the course prior to hie remarks.

[Wayne_Kozun]

All of you guys who want to see drivers off the tee tested and long iron approaches tested -- you do realize you are asking for an 8,200 yard golf course, don't you?

To force them to use drivers off the tee you could have bunkers that narrow the fairway about 220-250 off the tee forcing a 250 yd or so carry and rewarding, rather than punishing, length off of the tee.  While I wouldn't want to see this on every hole why not on one hole per side, at least for a major championship tournament.

[Brent Hutto]

First off, more wind would have been nice. A couple rounds with a breeze like they had on Sunday and then at least one round with real wind. That would have been a more complete test of golf, IMO. But wishing doesn't make it so, you take the weather as it happens.

Otherwise, I'd expect the "purist" types on this site to be beside themselves with joy at how it turned out. The "FLOG" strategy of bombing it off the tee with impunity and wedging it close to the hole from wherever it lands was not viable this week. The bunkering functioned quite strategically and the best player in the world put on a Nicklaus-style clinic of how to think ones way around the course and execute the plan perfectly.

Does anyone thing that hitting 2-irons off the tee that travel 260 yards and end up precisely where you planned is easy? How about leaving yourself 210, 200 yards from the hole and having to hit mid-irons off a tight, dusty lie to exactly the correct portions of a rock-hard green?

Chris DeMarco had to hit a bunch of drivers and 3-woods to keep up with Tiger and he managed to do it brilliantly. He worked the ball as he needed to into hard-to-access targets and putted a like a demon all week. And he lost by three shots to an opponent who was completely control of his ball, though the air and once it was on the ground.

If you don't like a driver-wedge, soft, green manicured regular tour stop that can be FLOGged in 22-under-par and you didn't like Hoylake this week then what the hell would you like?

I just finish watching the final round and with the exception of the usual Els and Garcia choke-jobs, that was was good stuff!

[John Kavanaugh]

My issue resides more with Digest than Ron Whitten. I would hope the game's leading publication (at least the total numbers & ad dollars say that) would provide a genuine outlet for real architectural critique than what you are getting now.

Ron Whitten is now moving more and more in the active design field. I have opined on this beforehand and said that one can't be a critic (umpire) and a designer (player) at the same time. And the idea that one simply needs to disclose the situation in order for those relationships to continue is also flat out wrong. What does one do? To you recuse yourself from frank comments because of a future desire to possibly work with someone who is in the field now. If one has to recuse oneself to any great degree the purpose in having a critic who can provide candid comments then becomes compromised.

I enjoyed what Ron had to say in his BO course analysis although I am stil wondering if Ron has ever played the course prior to hie remarks.

Matt,

Should Brad recuse himself from including in his ranking system courses he makes a profit from when he writes or contributes to their histories...I think that course in Arizona took a jump in the rankings when he did their book...And isn't he being paid to help with a book on a course out east that will soon be top ten.  I don't think there is a thing wrong with what Brad is doing and feel the same way about Ron and his design work....What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

note:  I understand you no longer have bias towards either magazine..

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