Albuquerque, New Mexico

« **on:** July 19, 2006, 11:36:27 AM »

What is the view on these courses in New Mexico? I'm not involved in the planning for this trip but we have a great tradition of whining at the organizer who does a nice job.

Sandia Golf Club
Santa Ana Golf Club
Twin Warriors Golf Club
Paa-Ko Ridge Golf Club

« **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2006, 11:59:09 AM »

Of those courses listed Paa-Ko-Ridge is the great value. And with it's new 9 added, having 27 to argue (or whine) over should be good for a few more pints. That said, I believe they and Sandia resort and casino have a package that might be worth looking into. Of course that's all predicated on whether your group also prefers games of chance. If not, I'd say Twin Warriors is the nicest in accomodations, for regional aesthetics. The golf is solid to good, but everything is bit pricey on a New Mexico scale. If you're coming from a metro area you won't feel it and may even view it as inexpensive.

Santa Ana is nothing of gca note, save for a few holes, but it is also a very solid course, that most frugally minded guest will appreciate.

It should be said that failure to make the 90 minute drive to Black Mesa will be viewed in hindsight as a mistake.

« **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:02:17 PM »

Thanks Adam. I may have an opportunity to play somewhere on Sunday, as this trip ends on a Saturday. Do others agree that Black Mesa would be the best choice?

« **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:20:17 PM »

Yes! Absolutely! Black Mesa should be a must for anyone traveling to that area of the country.

« **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:31:23 PM »

Ditto Craig's sentiment. Paako and Twin Warriors are very nice, but Black Mesa with stay on your mind long after you leave.

« **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:36:19 PM »

I would substitute the UNM Championship Course designed by Red Lawrence instead of Santa Ana to get a more classic and traditional course in your NM experience. By all means, do not miss Black Mesa.

« **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2006, 05:30:10 PM »

Jason:

The issue with places like UNM / Championship is that it has a history of being overwatered. The new super is from Black Mesa so hopefully that sorry trend has been stopped. The Red Lawrence layout is well done if the ground game is allowed to happen.

Agree with those who have said a visit to Black Mesa is a major league MUST. I think the world of the course and see it at the same level as Pac Dunes and other top notch public courses that have come forward in the last 5-10 years.

Paa-Ko Ridge is also a must when in town -- the new nine is nicely done but I still see the original 18 as the better of choices.

One word to the wise -- play Santa Ana -- the golf is quite affordable and better than most believe -- be sure to play the Tamaya and Cheena nines.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2006, 07:54:11 PM »

I agree with Matt Ward- glad to hear there is a new Super who may finally get the golf course firm like it was when Carl Olsen was there in the 70's.

Juat one note about Black Mesa- it is 1.25-1.5 hours from Albuquerque, so I hope you have the time for the trip. You might also consider Cochiti Lake, which has been redone by RTJ Jr. (also the original archie) recently. Haven't played it since, but played it often in the past, and my good friends sau it is improved. 45 minute N. of ABQ.

« **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:18:39 PM »

If you are playing 4 rounds, 2 at Black Mesa and 2 at Paa ko Ridge.........end of recommendation, pls follow this advise

« **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:21:49 PM »

Jim S:

I have played Cochiti -- both prior and after the work done there and have to wonder what all the fuss is about. A good course -- yes -- but making the time and effort to play there will likely mean one less day at Black Mesa and Paa-Ko -- my answer to that -- no way jose !

« **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:32:40 PM »

Has anyone played Sandia GC? I'm going back out in October hopefully. I've played the original 18 at Paa-Ko Ridge and loved it, and Black Mesa is the first priority for this year, but Sandia is much closer to where I'm staying (with a friend, so no need for accommodations and no gambling this trip), so just curious what everyone else thinks.

« **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:31:19 PM »

Sandia is a modest more subtle design, although the holes nearest the hotel seem to have lots of bells and whistles. All in all, Mr. Miller's Ft. McDowell design is more better.

As for Santa ANA. Puhhlleees do not waste your time. Same with Cochitti Lakes. I never played there before the re-do, but it would appear that Mr. Jones removed the Baranca's that were dominate features and crossed perpendicular to the line of play on many holes. I can only imagine this was done to accomodate the lowest common denominator. Otherwise, I'd imagine they were awesomely intimidating features. Even if they were only in the minds eye of the better player. I'll admit there were some holes that were segragated, peaceful and showed some promise. Some holes almost had skyline greens.

Stick with Black Mesa if you want to have FUN.

« **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:40:14 AM »

Black Mesa reigns supreme. It's more than worth a 90 mile drive.

« **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2006, 12:24:05 AM »

If you can work it out, try to stay up in Santa Fe with its great restaurants, shopping, etc, much more scenic than Albuquerque, play a couple of rounds at Black Mesa, then drive back to Alb. via Pakoo Ridge which is on the way on a beautiful back road.

« **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2006, 12:22:30 PM »

I returned from this trip on Sunday. I opted not to go to Black Mesa primarily for logistical reasons. Here were my impresstions:

Overall - At this time a year, the area is very pleasant to play. It is cooler than Arizona and the wind seems to kick up more frequently. The greens tended to be soupy and most were recovering from aeration, but the fairways were generally very firm. The area is beautiful, and, although I payed a lump sum for the trip, the price seemed very reasonable, about $650 for 5 rounds of golf and pedestrian lodging.

The courses range from solid to better than average (approximately 3 (Sandia) -6 (Paa Ko) on Doak Scale). Go here for the weather, price and food rather than to see once in a lifetime courses.

Courses:

Sandia - We played it from very short tees (this was a group event) and I did not get much of a feel for the course other than the fun of playing some short driveable par fours and par fives that were generally mid irons into the greens. Pretty wide course in a nice location but not a real memorable design.

Santa Ana: The surprise of the trip for me. Intimidating off the tee because of large areas of natural vegetation to carry. If one is capable of that task, a pretty interesting design with many fairways angled to the tee and severely contoured greens. It looked like there was an original 18 with additional new holes sprinkled in. The original holes seemed far superior to the new ones, which tended to use a lot of water and could have been found anywhere.

Go here if you want an interesting course for a reasonable price and are comfortable with a muni type feel on a good golf course. This course seemed very walkable.

Twin Warriors - Beautiful setting. I can't say that I remember a lot about the course. I was playing well at the time, and perhaps that fact reveals something about my ability to focus on architecture and golf at the same time.

Paa Ko Ridge - Beautiful setting up and over ridges at relatively high elevations and interesting holes. We played 36 consisting of all 3 nines once and holes 1-9 a second time. The primary weakness in my view was an endless repetition of drop shot par threes (6 of them) with the only exception being an interesting slightly uphill par three on the first nine with a green 90 yards long. From our tee, we had 87 yards to the front and 162 to the pin into the wind. I hit 6 and 5 iron on the hole.

Par fours and fives tended to present interesting tee shot options with an agressive tee shot yielding a significantly easier 2nd, but at the cost of tightened landing areas. I do not know how walkable the course is but there were quite a few high school kids walking the course.

« **Reply #15 on:** October 05, 2006, 12:54:11 PM »

Good on ya Jason. For not only the folow-up but your honest observations. Most importantly your ability to see how unique PaaKo's 4th truely is. There are many who pride themselves on being able to see the the quality inherent in some newer designs. Yet poo poo Dye's 4th as goofy. I agree with you, the hole is top notch and stands out accordingly.

Twin Warriors strength lies in it's variety and setting. Perhaps thats why it was tough to remember specifics, he threw alot at you, style and architectural wise.

You will need to return and pay for the sin of not going up to Black Mesa. I sentence you to a minimum of two rounds there over at least two days. But I gaurantee, you will want more.

« **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2006, 01:28:07 PM »

Quote from: Jason Topp on October 05, 2006, 12:22:30 PM

Paa Ko Ridge - Beautiful setting up and over ridges at relatively high elevations and interesting holes. We played 36 consisting of all 3 nines once and holes 1-9 a second time. The primary weakness in my view was an endless repetition of drop shot par threes (6 of them) with the only exception being an interesting slightly uphill par three on the first nine with a green 90 yards long. From our tee, we had 87 yards to the front and 162 to the pin into the wind. I hit 6 and 5 iron on the hole.

Par fours and fives tended to present interesting tee shot options with an agressive tee shot yielding a significantly easier 2nd, but at the cost of tightened landing areas. I do not know how walkable the course is but there were quite a few high school kids walking the course.

Jason,
I've only played the original 18 at Paa-ko Ridge, but I have to question your use of calling the par 3s "drop-shots". I played the tips and the yardages are 183, 265, 272, and 228 yards. Despite the +200 yarders in this group playing downhill (and at elevation), I would hardly call them drop-shots.

Cheers,
Brad

« **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2006, 05:26:01 PM »

I played both Paa-Ko and Black Mesa about 3 weeks ago. Overall I thought both were superb and met my expectations; the pricing (sub- $100 for each) was icing on the cake. I would recommend them to anyone, anytime.

However: both have several blind shots and/or local knowledge shots. So one play doesn't help, even with the GPS (both) and yardage book (only at Paa-Ko; none at BM -- what gives?!?!?!) But I'm learning not to let blind shots on courses I only play one time to bug me...but I'm a slow learner.

I also expected both courses, especially BM, to be more firm and fast. Neither particularily were, but I was told the area had an inordinate amount of rain this year, so maybe it was an anomoly.

Lastly, the par 5s. I generally hit decent drives, and with the altitude those balls carry a mile. So on several 5s I was in the go/no-go zone for reaching in two: 230-250 yards. But I only hit 3W once over both rounds. From the fairways there didn't look like there were any places to miss. A typical green complex was 5 sand bunkers left, push up green in middle, 20 ft fall-off right, shallow green and desert/woods behind. This migth be a slight over-generalization, and maybe with more plays I would see the risk/reward options. Note that I am a high handicapper, so 10 ft- sandpits are no good for me.

But to repeat, I would go back and play these two again, before I played anything else in NM (nothing vs. those other courses, but repeat play is the key on these two).

« **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:48:00 PM »

Matt:

Paa Ko was very firm tee to green when I was there. I think I got 70 yards of roll on some tee shots to flat fairways, let alone the downhill ones.

I didn't find it too dificult to figure out where to hit the tee shots with the GPS. I liked the feature that a safe tee shot was ofen visible but an agressive tee shot was often partially blind - inducing some additional uncertainty.

The course did have a fair amount of containment type features if you went awry. I used a few of those.

I couldn't decide if I liked the new nine as well as the others. I think I did, but it definitely had a different character, 3-3-3 with a lot of length. I thought it was incredibly beautiful, particularly in the back portion of the course. It was, however, about 250 yards longer than the other nines from the tees we played.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 06, 2006, 06:59:55 AM »

Jason -

we only got a chance to play the original 18 so missed the new 9, would have liked to see that. We did summit all the way to the top of #17, which is an outrageous tee shot and view. But thta tee alone adds 20 minutes to the end of every round.

I definitely lost a few balls out in NM, actually more at Paa-Ko but I wasn't playing well, either. But as I said, I'm probably being a little too harsh on the blind- ness. If I lived out there I would gladly play either (both) all season long. In fact, I think both courses have fantastic annual membership packages.

« **Reply #20 on:** October 12, 2006, 08:08:23 PM »

I'm sitting out in Albuquerque at the moment with a little time to write so I thought I'd comment on a couple courses played in the last couple of days.

Played UNM-South yesterday and was found it to be a treat. It was admittedly wet (partially because of a decent amount of rain here recently) but not ridiculously so. The course would be amazing under firmer conditions due to the many slight side-hill types of holes. There are a few really neat views of ABQ as well, and challenging greens as well. Definitely worth playing, and a great deal at $40.

Played Twin Warriors today and also enjoyed that course. Its similar to Paa-Ko Ridge in style and I thought was comparable in difficulty. The course is very long and even with the altitude I found myself (a fairly long hitter) with many long-irons in even from the 7200 yard tees (7700 is not something I wanted to try!). While I did enjoy it, I'd recommend Paa-Ko over TW...to my mind better golf, better greens, better views. TW is also fairly pricy for the area...$75 resident, $129 non-resident.

Black Mesa tomorrow!

« **Reply #21 on:** October 15, 2006, 07:29:26 PM »

Just wanted to follow up to my previous post...Black Mesa was awesome. We had a perfect day and the course certainly makes a strong first impression. It certainly is worth playing if in New Mexico.

I've been trying to figure out which of Black Mesa or Paa-Ko Ridge I like better. Both would have to be in or around my ten favorites...so it would probably be a 5-5 split over 10 rounds.

« **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2007, 04:24:01 PM »

Bump.

I have been invited to join a group in Albuquerque the last week of August, and was wondering about typical weather/course conditions for this time of year. We will be playing 36 at Black Mesa and Paa-Ko, and 18 at Twin Warriors, Sandia, and UNM South. Other than historical forecasts, unlikely monsoons or early September snow, is there anything course specific?

Any help is much appreciated.

Wyatt

« **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2007, 04:41:27 PM »

Wyatt,
I think that most years you're likely to be ok in terms of being after the monsoon season which I've always heard described as late-July and early-August for the most part. I do think that last year it went into September.

I will say that whoever picked out your course listing did a fine job. The only one missing out of the best for me is Cochiti, which is comprable to UNM, Twin, and Sandia in my book. Black Mesa and Paa-Ko are my two favorites. I'll be interested to hear what you think.

« **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2007, 04:57:52 PM »

Andy,

Thanks for the reply. I have dug pretty deep into the previous threads, which I hope assisted in the planning of the trip. From what I have read and heard, I just don't think the trip would be complete without 36 at both BM and Paa-Ko. I think the breakdown of play is as foloows:

wed: 18 Sandia (staying here for our degenerate gambling set)
thurs: 18 UNM South / 18 Twin Warriors
fri: 36 Paa-Ko -Ridge
sat: 36 Black Mesa followed by an evening in Santa Fe.

It's very easy to get excited about when you have been watching snow fall outside your window all day!

News:

Jason Topp

Adam Clayman

Jason Topp

Craig Van Egmond

Jason Hines

Steve_ Shaffer

Matt_Ward

Jim Sweeney

cary lichtenstein

Matt_Ward

Andy Troeger

Adam Clayman

Kyle Henderson

Bill_McBride

Jason Topp

Adam Clayman

Brad Swanson

Matt MacIver

Jason Topp

Matt MacIver

Andy Troeger

Andy Troeger

Wyatt Halliday

Andy Troeger

Wyatt Halliday