[cary lichtenstein]

Bette and I finally made it out to Bandon and played the Trails today.

The weather here is perfect and we enjoyed the course.

Can't wait to play Pacific tomorrow.

[Dan Herrmann]

BT is a very fine course, and I really, really liked it.

But I LOVE PD and BD!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is a course of great par 3's to say the least. Number 5 has an incredible green complex.

[rjsimper]

It is a course of great par 3's to say the least. Number 5 has an incredible green complex.

I thought our group made 2 holes in one on 5...then realized we werent even on the proper level.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

How did you find the middle holes at Trails ?

I found them to be a good bit less once you leave the 6th hole until you reach the approach shot at the 13th. From that point on until you reach the finale the course does very well.

How say you ?

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

What did you think of #8, the short par 4, and #12, the long par 3?  I thought they were both very good holes.  By the way, I agree with your general premise--the best holes come in the first six and last six holes of the course.

[Mike Benham]

The weather here is perfect and we enjoyed the course.

Cary -

Thanks for the review of the course, the observations you made are brief but thought provoking.  

Mike


Ps:  It is 3:30 PM on the West Coast when you posted, you had plenty of time for another 18 or 9 at a minimum (and I don't want to hear that had a massage scheduled from a 50-year old hippie peeping Tammy ...)

[cary lichtenstein]

We thought the back was better than the front, especially 14 thru 18. I liked the change of pace alot.

I liked alot of the holes and will post more after I play it a 2nd time.

The first 13 holes are protected from the wind and the course was as vunerable today as it could be.

I was a bit underwhelmed, about what I expected from the variety of reviews I read and the past Coore and Crenshaw courses I have played.

Sand Hills and Friar's Head are head and shoulders better, but I think this is their 3 rd best.

I would have liked to see a bit more eye candy, blowout bunkers on the middle holes, but the test is do I want to come back and play it again, and the answer is yes.

I liked the par 3 5th alot, ditto the 245 par 3. I don't think there is a hole that I didn't like, 14 could be contraversial, but it was just a 3 wood and a flip wedge today, alothough I had a good caddy and he told me to just hit it on the front so it doesn't roll off the back.

I used the whole bag today, flips, lots of punch shots, alot of shots on the ground, the sand in the traps was first class.

[Paul Richards]

Trails is no 'poor sister' to the other two courses at Bandon.

They are all spectacular.

Glad to hear you enjoyed it.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

The holes you mentioned are simply OK in my book. The short par-4 was nothing more than a pedestrian design and the long par-3 is nothing more than filler.

C&C deserve plenty of credit for a WOW beginning and end -- but the middle is deadly dull. I didn't get revved up again until the approah at #13 and the unique greenside bunker to the right of the green.

Bandon Trails is a fine layout -- but it's not in the same league with the first two. No doubt brownie point will be mailed in from the Core (no pun intended) Crowd that simply thinks C&C can never hit anything less than a tape measure home run. Bandon Trails is a solid double -- no more IMHO.

P.S. With that said -- I really do love the short par-3 5th and, of course, the dynamic and controversial par-4 14th hole, to name just two. The starting hole is also a peach. But the middle holes really need some lift and they simply sat there for me.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I think you're being a bit harsh on Trails.  There is some merit in holes #7 through #12.  When I played it, the green on #8 was very firm.  My friend and I both hit driver on the hole, hit it left and faced a very difficult shot to a back pin with not much green and the back bunker to contend with.  The other time I played it, I laid up and the approach wasn't easy either.  I would never call the hole pedestrian.  It's a very good, short par 4.  The bunkering on #10 is very interesting.  I love the way #12 and #13 share the same land.  #12 into the wind is a very strong hole.  And, there are some interesting contours there that allow you to bounce it in; the green also has a lot of movement.  I think there's more there than you give credit for.  One thing I enjoyed and was somewhat surprised about was just how firm the Trails course played.  I definitely played more run-up shots at Trails than the other courses.  Great fun.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, I am with you on the short par 4 8th. However 12 is a great long par 3 to me. The balls feeds beautifully from left to right on the green with proper risk associated with the play from the tee. The shorter tee on the right makes that shot slightly less of a challenge. I played it a bit too agressively with a 2nd ball one morning when I was playing alone and almost clocked the nice and very skilled super. I am not real high on 8 or 11, but but 11 has a great drive with the green complex being pretty good. 13 has a wonderful green complex. No I do not think it is 17 but yes a top 100 modernit is.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Help me out when you say I'm "harsh" -- the benchmark going into the 3rd layout at Bandon was quite high and reasonably so because of the first two that preceded it. In addition, C&C had done Friar's Head and the momentum they have generated with other courses -- including Sand Hills is notable. Yes, the bar is high for them and for what Bandon has achieved prior to the Trails coming on board.

The interior land area at the Trails was not the best of places but clearly it does provide an alternative to the ocean vistas that the other two use to full advantage.

Tim -- when you say "some merit" on what I say I think it is you who are being a bit miserly with your viewpoint on my take. Please knock yourself out and tell me how the middle holes HOLD THEIR OWN against the very beginning and end holes you find there? It's not even close IMHO.

When you say #12 is strong into the wind -- Tim -- allow me to clue you in -- most holes into the wind can be tough. I don't measure the quality of  hole(s) when people add the qualifier of the wind playing a major role. I would suggest something a bit different -- how does the hole appear AS IS ?

The short 8th and the long 12th are simply decent holes -- they are far, far away from the other holes you find at the Trails.

The issue for many is that the devotees of C&C will simply wax poetic that the Trails is in the same vein with Sand Hills and Friar's Head. I enjoyed the Trails -- and when it hits its stride -- beginning and end -- there's little doubt that maximum fun is front and center. But, I hasten to add, there needs to be some measurement of context when adding up the entire course.

The Trails benefits from being in the Bandon troika. I don't see the course being near the likes of the first two. You see I don't believe that a course that is 1/3 lite deserves to be linked to the two others that offer a good bit more for the totality of what you get. Yes, the Trails is certainly worth a play because it's excellent spots -- just not excellent to enough IMHO to be placed among the top 25 modern courses in the USA.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

Calm down partner, there's no need to get your knickers in a twist.  As I said earlier, I agree that the middle six holes are the weaker holes at Bandon Trails.  However, I don't agree that the holes are "pedestrian" or "filler."  I made some of these points earlier (to which you did not respond), but I'll reiterate.

#8 obviously gives you the option of trying to drive the green or layup; a miss with your driver is appropriately punished;

#9 is a short par 5, but it requires you to take on the center bunker; left of the bunker is a narrow landing area;

#10 requires a drive down the left side for the best angle to the green, but a really cool bunker exists down the left side;

#11 isn't my favorite hole, but it does tempt people to drive to the small landing area to the right when there really isn't any advantage for doing so;

#12 shares land with #13 fairway, which is an interesting feature, and has a lot of contour both around and on the green, which enables you to bounce it in from the left or right and leaves tricky putts, and it can play long--a 3 wood or even a driver, which is something that doesn't exist elsewhere at the resort (minus a very strong wind).  

Trails is the only C&C course I've played so I'm not a "devotee" of C&C.  I agree that the best holes on the course come at the beginning and end--for my money, the best holes would include #4, #14, #15 and #17.  I don't know whether it's top 25 modern or not, but I put it at the same level as Bandon Dunes and I like BD a lot, much more than a lot of posters here.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

My knickers are just fine partner. However ...

Let me help you out because you have a bad case of tap dance-itis or even a more serious form of dodge ball-itis. When you say holes are weak -- what does that mean for you? I'll clue you in for me -- when I say "weak" that means a tie-in to the words "lite" or "pedestrian." If you agree there weak -- then provide something a bit more than a phrase that can be as wide as the Pacific Ocean.

You do agree about the beginning and end of the Trails. For a course to be rated as high as Trails is NOW, that means the TOTALITY of what you find there is at a consistent high quality from 1st tee shot to final putt.

The middle holes don't cut it. Where is the sheer details you see both prior to them or after? Where is the unique qualities that grab you by the throat and leave a long term memory. It's not there frankly -- especially when I see holes such as the par-3 5th and short par-4 14th which are etched in stone.

Tim -- the 8th is a pedestrian hole. Just because an option exists it is no where near the likes of other such short holes because the totality of the details is not far reaching or thought provoking.

Where is the thought provoking qualities of the lame par-5 9th. Yes, there is the right hand bunker that interjects itself artfully in the drive zone -- but where is the second or third shot challenged? Compare the 11th with the 3rd at Pac Dunes and you can see what I am saying.

Regarding the 10th hole -- the simple nature of the hole doesn't make the fact that the hole is really filler. Once you get beyond the bunker the rest of the hole simply fails because the green is not one of the best products that the C&C tandem have produced.

#11 is one of the better holes on the side but the H20 is merely too far right to have any impact on the hole. The ample wide fairway doesn't even force a fade shot which the hole movement seems to encourage. Coupl eof other points --the putting surfac eis as big as Kansas with no real emphasis in terms of contours or movement.

I have already spoken on #12 and I see the approach at #13 as being the only thing of quality on that hole.

Tim -- if you think Trails is equal to the original you are essentially saying the existing ratings of Trails within the top 25 modern as listed by Golfweek is appropriate. I see it as nothing more than a "me tooism" that certainly elevates Trails to that level because of the success of the first two.

Keep this in mind -- Trails is 17th among the modern layouts and only trails the likes of Sand Hills, Friar's head and Cuscowilla. That's fairly up there for a layout with a "weak" section of middle holes.

To be clear -- I really like Trails -- but that's geared towards the first seven and the final five and a half. The middle is nothing more than a bare bones attempt at minimalism that demonstrates, at least to me, that sometimes less is less.

P.S. Tim -- it would help me understand your best preferences if you could list for me your top ten alltime public layouts you have played. If the Trails makes that list I would like to know what's above and below it. Appreciate your sharing that info.  

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

To some degree, our differences are semantic--what I'm admitting may be weaker holes in the context of the whole course, you're calling weak period.  I don't tend to evaluate courses based on a hole-by-hole analysis.  Yes, a great course must have great holes, but I don't mind a hole or two that aren't especially noteworthy if they're pleasant to play (a hole like Trails #7 comes to mind).  

I'll try to give you a top ten public (U.S.) that I've played, but I've never really tried to come up with a list before.  Not necessarily in order,

Pacific Dunes
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Sheep Ranch (seriously)
Kiawah Ocean Course
Torrey Pines South
Spanish Bay
Riverdale Dunes
Raven at Three Peaks
Pine Meadow

. . . or something like that.  I obviously need to get out more.  A disproportionate amount of my golf played outside of Colorado has been at Bandon.  I'd put Pacific over Trails and Bandon Dunes would be about equal to Trails.  I'd like to play the Ocean Course again; when I played it, it seemed awfully difficult.  I'd rate Trails over the others.  

[Dan Herrmann]

I felt there were a number of similarities between Bandon Trails and Hidden Creek, a C&C design in NJ.

That's certainly not an insult, because I think Hidden Creek is a very, very fine design.  Members at Hidden Creek have a real gem.  And I agree on the par 3 green complexes - they're great.

But - as I was playing BT, I had a feeling that I'd seen it before.  Other than the links holes and obviously #14, there are some holes where you could be forgiven if you thought you were in the NJ pinelands.

[cary lichtenstein]

Dan:

I agree with your comment. The middle holes have the Hidden Creek feeling.

After playing Bandon Trails today for a 2nd time, I think I can safely make the following observations:

1. BT is "lite" as Matt Wards says. The fairways are ultra wide. The greens are too slow and it takes too much bite out of the course.

2. The wind is not a factor until 14 or 15, so it makes for a pleasant day after being blown about on the other 2.

3. I think C & C need to come back, there are too many collection area where the divots pile up and other areas where I think they need to scrape off some of the top soil and expose more sand.

4. 14 which is so controversial, I like alot

Where does this course fit in the ranking? Worth playing, definitely, no rave

[CHrisB]

Dan:

I agree with your comment. The middle holes have the Hidden Creek feeling.

After playing Bandon Trails today for a 2nd time, I think I can safely make the following observations:

1. BT is "lite" as Matt Wards says. The fairways are ultra wide. The greens are too slow and it takes too much bite out of the course.

2. The wind is not a factor until 14 or 15, so it makes for a pleasant day after being blown about on the other 2.

3. I think C & C need to come back, there are too many collection area where the divots pile up and other areas where I think they need to scrape off some of the top soil and expose more sand.

4. 14 which is so controversial, I like alot

Where does this course fit in the ranking? Worth playing, definitely, no rave

To me this post illustrates why you have to play the course on more than one visit before you make conclusions about it.

I played Bandon Trails in late April, and the (south) wind was a huge factor on every hole except perhaps #7, #9 and #10. The 11th and the 13th were affected as much by that wind as the more open holes were. With that wind, the fairways didn't feel too wide. And the greens were quite fast (although the newer greens--#6 through #13--were slightly slower but still of good speed).

Personally, I think the middle stretch of holes had enough interest that they didn't drag the rest of the course down. I personally like it better than Bandon Dunes, but not as much as Pacific Dunes.

Matt,
I didn't think the 10th green was all that bad--I thought it had a bunch of interesting smaller-scale contours. I liked the diagonal ridge short of the 6th green, the green at #8, and the approach to #11. I also liked the 12th a lot--the hummock short-right of the green really makes that hole and I like how the angle of the shot and the fairway cut all the way to the 13th fairway tends to suck a lot of golf balls over there.

And I disagree with your contention: "For a course to be rated as high as Trails is NOW, that means the TOTALITY of what you find there is at a consistent high quality from 1st tee shot to final putt." There are too many courses where this is not true--Cruden Bay (ranked ahead of Bandon Trails) immediately comes to mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris B:

You missed my point by the same width as Tiger misses fairways. I stand by what I said. If a course has too many dog holes and think it can fly through because it has a number of superior holes then you and I will part company on what overall greatness means. That's the same argument the pro-Pebble Beach people say all the time and I don't buy it then or now.

Do you actually believe the middle holes at The Trails are anywhere close to the beginning and ending? They are miles apart in terms of the sheer detail, the nature of their routing and the challenges they present.

The start at The Trails is WOW oriented golf. I mean I absolutely love the par-3 5th -- the center-placed bunker at the 6th and no less the opening hole with its elevated tee of all that the eye can see.

The middle holes are just simply vanilla. Chris, look at the nature of the fairways play out. They serve a fundamental purpose but there's little edge to the holes from #8 right up until the approach to #13. It's just "we ran out of ideas for this section of the course" approach in the design.

The Trails gains because of the two courses that came before it and the overall buzz that Bandon Dunes generates. No doubt the groupie club of C&C fanatics also helps promote the place. I like a lot of things at The Trails but for people to see the course as being in the top 25 among all modern courses in the USA is a bit of a stretch that I can't buy.

[rjsimper]

Question - the general trend here seems to be to stop at 6 when identifying the holes that stand out.  What is the main knock on 7?  Personally, I liked it quite a bit and it still felt like a "Trails" hole.

My first thought on the 8th tee was "Am I in New England?"

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

I have no bitch about the 7th hole -- but that's where the course begins to slooooow down in terms of uniqueness. The 8th, you are right, looks like someone beamed it in from New England.

[CHrisB]

Matt,
No, I don't think the middle holes at BT are as good as the other holes. I just don't think they are quite as weak as you do.

And I don't think that a course has to be consistently excellent from #1-#18 to merit the kind of ranking Bandon trails has.

You missed my point by the same width as Tiger misses fairways.

No, I got your point--I just disagreed with it.

BTW, Tiger hit 11 fairways today...

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

For what it's worth I can name a good number of other courses that Golfweek doesn't rate as high in the modern category as The Trails.

The Trails gains considerably from being in the same mix with the other two already there -- a few eastern LI clubs gain their stature from this scenario as well.

It also helps that C&C are involved and no doubt they are talented but if you see their work at Sand Hills and what they did at The Trails you will easily see what I said.

The middle holes at The Trails leave plenty to desire as I said.

No doubt we agree to disagree. So be it.

[Dan Herrmann]

I admit this post is hype to solicit reaction..  but here goes.

Did C&C mail-in the middle section of holes at BT?  Did they use the "dogleg left of 410 with a pond" blueprint they had laying around?

I don't really believe this - just interested to see how folks react.

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