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Joel_Stewart

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I was web surfing tonight and looked at www.libertynationalgc.com web site which is very impressive.  The project that Paul Fireman is putting together is much more than just a private golf course.  The main cash register is at one end of the property in which 3 residential buildings will be built.  The buildings are 36, 43 and 50 stories tall and the condos start at $1.5 million.  A small hotel will also be on the site.  So far the development has cost $129 million according to the article from the MGA magazine.

It made me think that if I was going to spend $129 million and spend 5 years putting it together, would I hire Tom Kite and Bob Cupp?  I'm not bashing anyone here.  A few years ago I spent about an hour with a very nice Tom Kite and his son and I like what Bob Cupp did at Pumpkin Ridge but seriously, how does a billionaire decide on what I would call a "B or C" team for building a golf course?    Was Tom Fazio, Rees Jones (who lives 15 minutes away) or Jack Nicklaus not available?

I love some of the specs like bringing in 5,000 mature trees and installing 5,200 sprinkler heads.   The course also needs to accomidate 40,000 spectators.  I suspect that the development will succeed but only time will tell.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 04:05:58 AM »
Joel,

I think the vast numbers you refer to suggest a lot about the priorities of the development and explain a lot of what eventually happened to make the golf course look the way it does.

One thing's for certain; it doesn't look or play anything like Bayonne GC. I think it amazing that at Liberty National they oriented the practice range tees south, away from the NYC skyline vista. Seems like a big loss of a potetial asset. I am also not sure that, except for the two par-3s, there will be much if anything left of waterfront views once the towers and real estate go up.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 08:06:02 AM by Brad Klein »

A.G._Crockett

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Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2006, 07:54:02 AM »
Joel,
Isn't it implied in your post that Fazio, Jones, or Nicklaus are or would have been superior choice(s) to Cupp (and Kite)?  I don't know if you mean by name recognition or by their work other places.

FWIW, I think more of the work of Bob Cupp than anything that I have seen by either of the other three gentlemen, and I have played courses by each of them that I enjoyed.  If it was my nickel, I think I would have made the same call, at least from those 4 names.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 07:54:56 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2006, 08:06:22 AM »
I really don't know a thing about Fireman or the development, but maybe his priorities and market appeal are beyond Top 100 list.

From: http://www.golfoncapecod.com/paul_fireman.php

GOCC: Where do you like to play the most?
PF: I'm happy at Willowbend. I love the course…Bruce Besse's done a great job with it. But I also enjoy the club because it stands for more than just a golf club. Our goal is to create a culturally harmonious setting where people of dissimilar backgrounds can be joined together, a place where all you have to do is apply to get in and where everybody is treated the same, no matter who you are or how you made your money. Every member has the same status. For example, instead of having tee times for men and women, we have an A/B rule, so the players determine their own group, taking gender out of it, and I think we might have been the first in New England to do it that way.




That said, I am sure his bank is sweating with this exposure in this residential real estate market.


Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2006, 08:57:18 AM »
I think it amazing that at Liberty National they oriented the practice range tees south, away from the NYC skyline vista. Seems like a big loss of a potetial asset. I am also not sure that, except for the two par-3s, there will be much if anything left of waterfront views once the towers and real estate go up.

1. The range has a tremendous view of Verrazano and Statue of Liberty.

2. The residential towers will block views of industrial Jersey City, not Manhattan.

3. I heard that Fireman approached some of the top names in Golf Architecture for Liberty National, but was turned down.


A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2006, 09:16:32 AM »
I think it amazing that at Liberty National they oriented the practice range tees south, away from the NYC skyline vista. Seems like a big loss of a potetial asset. I am also not sure that, except for the two par-3s, there will be much if anything left of waterfront views once the towers and real estate go up.

1. The range has a tremendous view of Verrazano and Statue of Liberty.

2. The residential towers will block views of industrial Jersey City, not Manhattan.

3. I heard that Fireman approached some of the top names in Golf Architecture for Liberty National, but was turned down.



Re #3 above, why?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2006, 09:21:52 AM »
"Over 5,200 irrigation heads; more than double a typical top quality Northeast golf course."

Forget the golf, sign me UP!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2006, 09:46:17 AM »
Bob Cupp is a solid professional who does very good work. I must confess this project does scream Rees, Jack, Jones Jr.  or Fazio though.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2006, 09:52:23 AM »
I question whether there is a(ny) direct correlation between excessive wealth and golf architecture acumen.  

It is entirely plausible that the economic success of this project hinges more on foreigners' willingness to continue to purchase treasury instruments than whether Bob Cupp (or anybody else, for that matter) can produce a top 100 golf course.

Mike

Quote
Money, money changes everything.
Cyndi Lauper
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2006, 09:59:02 AM »
Voytek, you claim that "1. The range has a tremendous view of Verrazano and Statue of Liberty."

The range might have a view of the SoL, the Verrazano is at best a stretch from there, but the real issue isn't "the range," it's the golfer standing on it using it and playing shots. The main range tee is angled SSW, away from the good views and towards the highway and all of those little trees that might some day block the view of the roadway. The teaching tee at the far end affords a much better view, though that, too, will change when the real estate and buildings go up.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2006, 10:08:51 AM »
I had a nice day with Paul Fireman several years back when he first took over Willowbend, going up there as part of a team to interview for refurbishing the golf course.  I think we lost the job when the clubhouse architect kept trying to sell him on "knockout wet areas" i.e. spa, whirlpool, etc. ignoring Paul's gentle hints that "New Englander's don't walk around naked in front of others like you Texans do!"  Even after pulling the architect aside to tell him I thought he was going the "wrong direction" with Mr. Fireman, he went right back over and started pushing the spa concept......Then, Paul said, as nice as he could, that he didn't think "Texans understood the culture" of the club and we wouldn't be getting the job.

The point of the story is, Bob Cupp may have listened better than all the other gca's he talked to, as relationships, understanding of goals, etc. is usually key to an Owner hiring a consultant.

In fact, I recall Rees Jones telling me a story about the original design of Willowbend, which was not for Mr. Fireman.  Hurdzan and Rees happened to fly up on the same flight. Mike pulled out and showed all the pre-analysis of the site he had done (he was thinking of moving to Massachusetts at the time and really wanted the project) while Rees was somewhat less prepared. While that usually doesn't happen (showing your work to a competitor, but Mike is always willing to share information) Rees told the Owner that Mike deserved the job.

So, a lot of things go into hiring a gca above and beyond reputation, reputation for certain jobs, etc.  Even then, I think Bob may have a repuatation as a better tecnical architect for difficult sites than the others, or at least was better able to highlight his visions and thoughts.

All of this is off the top of my head, BTW.

Regarding the driving range, I suspect it was a Tom Kite decision - players of that caliber want to practice into the wind, and views be damned as they might be a distraction!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2006, 11:48:04 AM »
I think it amazing that at Liberty National they oriented the practice range tees south, away from the NYC skyline vista. Seems like a big loss of a potetial asset. I am also not sure that, except for the two par-3s, there will be much if anything left of waterfront views once the towers and real estate go up.

1. The range has a tremendous view of Verrazano and Statue of Liberty.

2. The residential towers will block views of industrial Jersey City, not Manhattan.

3. I heard that Fireman approached some of the top names in Golf Architecture for Liberty National, but was turned down.



Re #3 above, why?

Don't know; perhaps the GCA'er who mentioned it to me will chime in.

One thing that Jeff Brauer mentioned sounds likely - LN is on an EXTREMELY difficult, contaminated site - not all GCAa are interested in sites like that.

Matt_Ward

Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2006, 01:22:36 PM »
Voytek:

I believe you have played Liberty National and Bayonne. If you had ten rounds how many would you play at each and if you can offer some reasons it would be most appreciated?

Thanks ...

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2006, 02:39:20 PM »
Voytek:

I believe you have played Liberty National and Bayonne. If you had ten rounds how many would you play at each and if you can offer some reasons it would be most appreciated?

Thanks ...

Matt:

Never said I did.

I walked Liberty many, many times over the years because I live nearby. I actually witnessed the whole construction process firsthand. I know the holes and the course well, but not by playing.

Bayonne - I only saw the pics and walked the public walkway between the course and the Harbor from which you can see a few holes, but that's too little knowledge to answer your question.

Let's wait for an opinion of someone who actually played both.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 05:11:14 PM by Voytek Wilczak »

PjW

Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2006, 04:42:52 PM »
Bob Cupp can hold his own with the other architects mentioned.  With a smaller shop and work load he can probably devote more time to the project and client.

Phil Wycoff 8)

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2006, 05:08:38 PM »
how does a billionaire decide on what I would call a "B or C" team for building a golf course?

I believe deciding the right B's and C's probably through the course of a career has more to do with becoming a billionaire than you might think.  In fact, maximizing B's and C's is the essence developing anything.  I wish I knew how he did it too, maybe then I'd be on my way to becoming a billionaire. ;D

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2006, 06:35:56 PM »
Again I don't have anything against Bob Cupp and say in original post that I like what he did at Pumpkin Ridge.  I'm hearing good things about a course he built in Portola California.

I'm still surprised that he choose Bob Cupp.  By the comments on what was built at Liberty National, he got what he paid for.

Are Tom Kite and Bob Cupp a team?

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2006, 08:40:41 PM »
By the comments on what was built at Liberty National, he got what he paid for.


Joel,

How much Fireman pay Cupp and Kite?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2006, 09:13:40 PM »
I think Fireman wants a PGA Tour event and may get one now that the Barclays/Westchester may go on a rota. The Kite connection may work there as I don't think Cupp works with Kite on an ongoing basis. Maybe someone will interview Fireman and ask him the direct question concerning his choice of Cupp. Otherwise, it's speculation.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2006, 08:57:02 AM »
I'm a big fan of Bob Cupp's, but I think most of the answer is that the planning for this course began around 1995 or earlier and was hung up in permitting forever.  To go back and change the plan would have killed the project.  

Plus, once you've picked a horse, I think it's in poor taste to pick a new one based on the fashion of the day.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2006, 09:31:41 AM »
I'm a big fan of Bob Cupp's, but I think most of the answer is that the planning for this course began around 1995 or earlier and was hung up in permitting forever.  To go back and change the plan would have killed the project.  

Plus, once you've picked a horse, I think it's in poor taste to pick a new one based on the fashion of the day.

The Barrys (Applied Company) started buying the land and initiated the permitting process in the early 1990s. First for a 9-hole course, then, as they bought more land, for an 18-hole course. They had an idea for an upscale daily-fee course, but the economics did not work out.

With permits in place but unwilling to spend the huge bucks on golf course development, they needed someone with deep pockets and they sold the project to Fireman (early 2000s). They kept part interest in the golf course and the residential towers.

At that point I am pretty sure Fireman could have gotten another GCA, and I think he tried. Fireman decided that only an exclusive private course will be economically viable on that site. He wants to attract very affluent membership and major championships to LN, and Cupp/Kite, while certainly known and respected names, will not be as attractive to the image-conscious Wall Street types as, say, Nicklaus/Doak.


Brian Joines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2006, 10:39:21 AM »
I think it amazing that at Liberty National they oriented the practice range tees south, away from the NYC skyline vista. Seems like a big loss of a potetial asset. I am also not sure that, except for the two par-3s, there will be much if anything left of waterfront views once the towers and real estate go up.

1. The range has a tremendous view of Verrazano and Statue of Liberty.

2. The residential towers will block views of industrial Jersey City, not Manhattan.

3. I heard that Fireman approached some of the top names in Golf Architecture for Liberty National, but was turned down.



Re #3 above, why?

Don't know; perhaps the GCA'er who mentioned it to me will chime in.

One thing that Jeff Brauer mentioned sounds likely - LN is on an EXTREMELY difficult, contaminated site - not all GCAa are interested in sites like that.

I am suprised that the three aforementioned architects would have turned this down. Even though it was a difficult, contaminated site, it's certainly a high profile course that will likely bring any of these architects some more noteriety, espescially if the PGA hosts an event there.

Jin Kim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2006, 12:37:09 PM »
This article mentions that Liberty National is getting real consideration for the Barclay's:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060726/SPORTS01/607260310/1108

Derek_Duncan

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Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2006, 05:33:28 PM »
Was Kite involved with the pre-Fireman design?

My understanding is that LN is an example of a course where virtually no improvisations or adjustments were made in the field due to the sensitive nature of what's beneath. Cupp, who likes to draft highly detailed plans and prefers to work almost everything out in the studio, said the transition from the plans to the ground was accurate nearly "down to the inch." His ability to pre-plan for a site such as this might have had something to do with his hire. I also know he's tremendously proud of the course and is watching closely the reactions it produces.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The mentality of picking Cupp & Kite for Liberty National
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2006, 06:53:54 PM »
I also know he's tremendously proud of the course and is watching closely the reactions it produces.

Cupp publicly said many times that LN "will define his career".

The course has been panned on this site by some of those who walked it, although Jay Flemma was mildly complimentary, bemoaning only the penal, narrow fairways.

From what I have seen, LN is the opposite of the type of a golf course popular on GCA.com.

I happen to think (based on multiple walks) that LN is a solid course, designed specifically to withstand the pro assault.

The mindboggling views will make it very attractive to TV advertisers and the PGA Tour.

A perfect spot for the Ryder Cup, too, with the constant Statue and Ellis Island views becoming the 15th club for the Americans... ;) and the fodder for the talking heads.