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TEPaul

Columbia C.C.
« on: July 09, 2006, 08:04:06 AM »
Wayno and I dropped down to Columbia CC in Chevy Chase MD yesterday to spend the day going over the entire course with architect Bob Walton who is slowly doing bunker work and green expansions and working up a Master Plan for the HH Barker (1909), Travis and Flynn (early 1920s) and Ault and Clark evolution golf course.

There's a ton of stuff to think about in one form or another from simple things to real structural problems that obviously go all the way back to original routing.

The club seems to have a couple of handfuls of some extremely interesting architectural photographic historical evidence.

The golf course is old and extremely close coupled (tight) with natural topography that is in some places almost too much in its "quick-chance" elevation differentials.

I don't know that I've ever seen an American golf course that matches the unique "aura" of this place that unfortunately also includes the look of what has to be the closest and most complete representation of a massive Japanese arboretum on any golf course in the USA. The extent of the latter alone is almost so unimaginable as to make one not know where to even begin to discuss what to do----if anything.  ::)

Some topographical aspects of the course are such that I'm not even sure if my "Ideal Maintenance Meld" (or a few components of it) might not send "playability" right over the top on a number of holes.

All in all this golf course, to me at least, is very different, and pretty damn cool because of some of it (its bones) but there's a lot to think about for Bob Walton and the club.

I definitely wish them both well in their project, whatever ultimate form it takes.

If they want any suggestions from me they know where to find me.  ;)

The more I see, the more I love golf architecture for its vast differences that I feel are promoted and inspired by its completely interesting evolution in America over the last 100+ years.

T_MacWood

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2006, 10:28:13 AM »
One of my favorite golf courses and probably playing there was the event that sparked my interest in studying golf architecture history (many years ago). It broke my heart what Ault & Clark did there, hopefully they can bring it back.

Bill_McBride

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2006, 10:35:49 AM »
An old favorite of mine, I was fortunate to have a buddy who was a long time family member.   I love the contrasts between the finishing holes -- short par 4 #15, hooked tee shot and downhill plunge to a small green; lovely par 3 #16 over the pond off the side hill tees; nifty short par 4 #17, iron to the valley, wedge mostly blind straight uphill, a very old-fashioned hole; and #18, a burly uphill par 4 to a large well bunkered green set in the hill below the beautiful clubhouse.  There is an incredible variety of holes on that course, and it does have that aura or patina of antiquity about it.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2006, 12:09:56 PM »
Anything left from Barker's design efforts still there?  I'm working on a 1909 Barker course in NJ.  He was an interesting guy and did some decent work.    

Evan_Green

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2006, 12:35:07 PM »
Does anyone have any photos of Columbia? thanks

JSlonis

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2006, 01:01:29 PM »
One of my favorite golf courses and probably playing there was the event that sparked my interest in studying golf architecture history (many years ago). It broke my heart what Ault & Clark did there, hopefully they can bring it back.

To what extent did Ault & Clark screw up things at Columbia CC?  Ault did a very poor job with some bunker work at my home course Tavistock many years ago.  The only mention I ever see of them is in a negative light.  They must have done something good at some point...no?

I had the chance to play Columbia in the Middle Atlantic Amateur 4-5 years ago.  It was an interesting course routed over some unique topography.  The most memorable stretch of holes was around 15-18, those holes are really packed tight in that area.  The par 4 18th, is a wonderful finisher.

Craig Disher

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2006, 03:32:58 PM »
In the 80s and 90s I think every classic-era course in the DC area was renovated by A&C. In every case, except Argyle CC, that work has been undone - and more to the point, when the clubs decided to re-renovate, none hired A&C.

I'd characterize their work at Columbia as an attempted to "modernize" the course - add some typical A&C bunkers at fairway edges, put some mounding around greens, plant some trees. I don't believe they touched the routing, the overall topography, or the putting surfaces.

TEP - can you give us an idea of how much work Bob Walton completed over the winter?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2006, 03:47:17 PM »
TE Paul,
When you metion Ault and Clark in the same sentence as Barker, Travis and Flynn, well for me it's the equivalent of going up to blackboard and scratching your fingernails down it--DEEPLY......

And while I do have a very minor catalog of Ault & Clark courses seen, my defense is that I'll make better use of my time when in those areas which they have done their "thing."

T_MacWood

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2006, 04:08:46 PM »
JSlonis
Craig knows more about A&C's work than I do. From what I understand Hamilton in Canada hired them to with similar results. I've never heard anything good about their renovation work. Like Craig said they altered existing bunkers and added new bunkers with a modern stylized look, totally out of character for the course.

Mark
I believe the current routing is still Barker's. Travis altered the bunkering (including the massive bunker complex at the 5th), moved tees and rebuilt greens. The greens are really wild; typical of Travis. At #16 Barker built a replica of the 12th at GCGC and ironically Travis remodeled it.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 04:10:45 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2006, 08:10:55 PM »
Jonathan:

I know you did. He told me at 6pm.  ;)

As for who did exactly what at Columbia over the years I guess is something of a mystery today, although there is plenty of speculation to go around. It's probably hard to tell what's Barker, Travis or Flynn (or perhaps someone else). It's very possible that Walter Harban had a lot more to do with many of the original details of that course than anyone apparently can be sure of.

In any case, I don't believe it's difficult to see what Ault and Clark did---eg a lot of bunker work and mounding thoughout the course as well as a few greens. Certainly #5 green is A&C. Maybe #12 and #15 is too.

The research that Bob knows of and Wayne and I and others know about is just enough to make the gaps in information semi-maddening.

There're some very interesting old hole photos sprinkled around the club but since this project will probably be done in stages any research information from the research experts of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com sure would be welcomed, I'm sure.

Today my primary fascination is definitely #8, #10 green and the 18th green and its surrounds.

I don't know who did the present #16 green---whether it's fairly original or whether Ault and Clark did something to it but that doesn't matter---the green is just wonderful as a shortish par 3 over water that set the green on something of a diagonal. It could be one of the most strategic (multi optional) shortish par 3 holes I've ever seen. There seems to be some lore around the club that Bobby Jones designed ANGC's #12 with this hole in mind.

Craig:

To date Bob Walton is in the process of doing bunker work on #3, #4 and #5.

Tom MacW:

It looks like the original routing is basically intact as to sequencing and hole positioning, although apparently the original 5th green had to be brought back about 40-50 yards because of the road behind the present green. That must have been long ago, though, as there seems to be a pretty old photo with a green about in the position the present one is in and in relation to the original 6th tee.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 08:26:38 PM by TEPaul »

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2006, 09:16:25 PM »
Tom - like much lore, #16's "truth" seems to be somewhat warped.  The members at CCC like to say that Jones saw #16 in 1921 and later patterned #12 at ANGC after it.  The problem is that the early #16 looked nothing like it does today.  It is probably closer to the truth that CCC's #16 was modified post 1930s by tinkerers to look like #12 at ANGC.

JC
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 09:17:59 PM by Jonathan »

T_MacWood

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 10:02:41 PM »
Jonathan
You are right...it did look different, but wouldn't it have been the inspiration for the 16th at ANGC? Maybe the original form of the hole was supposed to be the inspriation for the 12th.

The 16th in Barker and Travis's day had a stream that wrapped around the green (on three sides)...I think the pond was added sometime in the 20s or 30s (I wouldn't be surprised if Flynn was involved).

So it is possible RTJ did see it and was inspired for the 16th or Bobby Jones was inspired by the original hole for the 12th, although the orientation of the green was not the same.

All that being said the original Barker hole was the most bizzarre.

TE
According to Harban the goal for the 5th was the greatest par-5 in golf. The massive bunker complex they built (reminiscent of Tilly's Sahara) required four car-loads of Chesapeake sand.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 10:16:09 PM by Tom MacWood »

Craig Disher

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 10:36:29 PM »
The pond was installed by 1937 and its shape as well as the shape and size of the green is nearly the same as it is today.

An interesting hole is the 6th where some significant work was done between 1937 and 1951. A pair of fairway bunkers about 100 yds short of the green disappeared (4 fairway bunkers remained) and the large green with 3 bunkers on the left and right front was replaced by two smaller greens. The two left greenside bunkers remained but the right bunker was absorbed by the new green and a new bunker was built on the new green's right side.

Currently there is one green, about where the left one was, and it's bracketed by what must be A&C bunkers. It's about the same size as the one from 1951 but could have been constructed by A&C much later. Since all the original fairway bunkers are gone and only a single A&C fairway bunker now exists, I assume A&C took them out.

A good question is what happened to the original #6 green? Why was it replaced by 2? and who did the work?

TEPaul

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 11:46:11 PM »
It appears (as we've been suspecting) from an article in Golf Illustrated prior to Columbia's US Open that the man who may've been responsible for the vast majority of the architecural design and work that is what Columbia became in the ten years leading up to the 1921 US Open was none other than Columbia's own Walter Harban.

As many know Dr Harban was the representative from DC throughout the teens and 1920s who was responsible with Piper and Oakley and the Wilsons of Merion and some others around the country for the dedicated agronomic resarch that eventually morphed into the USGA Green Section in the early 1920s.

According to the Golf Illustrated arcticle Harban was apparently considered to be extremely interested in architecture and perhaps considered to be something of an expert on golf architectural design. The article said Harban had only one hobby----and it was Columbia's golf course.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 11:48:49 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 11:51:09 PM »
TE
Dr. Harban was interested in architecture, but he was also smart and hired professionals like Barker and Travis.

TEPaul

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 11:53:03 PM »
A very nice source who worked for Ault and Clark said he does not think Ault and Clark did rebuild any of the greens at Columbia, other than perhaps Mr Ault toning down #18 green long ago. #18, according to the old photos had some pretty radical contours in it at one time.

If you ask me, It still does. ;)

TEPaul

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2006, 12:08:50 AM »
"TE
Dr. Harban was interested in architecture, but he was also smart and hired professionals like Barker and Travis."

Tom MacW:

What's that supposed to mean?

Do you know what Barker did exactly at Columbia, since no one else seems to know exactly? ;)

And if you think you do know, do you have any idea what's left of whatever Barker did?

According to Wayne, both Travis and Flynn were paid $300 each for what they did at Columbia. I don't know what you got architecturally in 1920 for $300 but it couldn't have been that much work.

If they really were paid only $300 each, my guess is Columbia got some green designs from Travis and certainly from Flynn.

It looks to me like Columbia had their own in-house "Open Doctor" back in 1920-21 in Walter Harban, and it looks like they may've basically done things in-house with all the changes leading up the the 1921 Open as the article also mentions the work of Green Chairman G.H Chasmar.

T_MacWood

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2006, 07:59:26 AM »
TE
The redesign work began in 1917. I'm not sure what the payment in 1921 was for but I would not conclude that therefore Harban is responbible for the re-design (and not Travis).

There are plenty of articles on Columbia prior to the US Open and they all acknowledge Travis's work. No doubt Harban was actively involved in many aspects as well...from what I understand he was one of the top experts on grass, but to say he was the true designer (and not Travis...or Barker, for that matter, in the first go round) is not supported by the facts.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 08:29:35 AM by Tom MacWood »

Andy Hughes

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2006, 08:23:20 AM »
Craig, would the old 6th 'right hand' green then have been in the firing line at all off the 7th tee? Strange that they would have created two greens...

What do you make of TEP's comment about the 5th green being another 40-50 yards back. I have no idea when Jones Bridge Road started..Also, where would the 6th tee have been--presumably near the green 50 yards back, which would make 6 a dogleg left.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

TEPaul

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2006, 09:40:49 AM »
"There are plenty of articles on Columbia prior to the US Open and they all acknowledge Travis's work. No doubt Harban was actively involved in many aspects as well...from what I understand he was one of the top experts on grass, but to say he was the true designer (and not Travis...or Barker, for that matter, in the first go round) is not supported by the facts."

Tom MacW:

I hope Columbia or Bob Walton has all those 'plenty of articles on Columbia prior to the US Open acknowledging Travis's work'. If not maybe you could point out which ones they are. If only for the purposes of research, the club, Walton and a number of others would like to pin down as much as possible about who did exactly what and when on that golf course. ;)

In Golf Illustrated's July 1921 article which is the same month as the 1921 US Open at Columbia, it's mentioned in a very comprehensive article, by I. Lewis Brown, complete with numerous photographs of the course just prior to the Open that Columbia stands as a monument to Harban's ten year work on the course and his extensive study of golf course architecture, plus his own ingenuity in putting his own ideas into practice.  

The article also makes special mention of the uniquely radical bunker and hummock field that completely covers a stretch of the 5th hole. Special mention is made in the article of that particular feature on the course for the obvious reason that it is so unique and radical and apparently penal. It says in no uncertain terms that that architectural features is ONE of Harban's ideas. There's no question, looking at the photos of it that it certainly was radical in extent as well as in aesthetics.

Do you assume that that feature at Columbia is the only one Harban was responsible for (not that you were even aware of that until now), because, as you say, he was not a "true designer"?

Tom, what is a "true designer" in your mind? Are you under some presumption that a "true designer" had to be certified or accredited in some way, particularly back then? ;)

If you are I think you've been missing a fairly large and important part of the evolution and history of golf course architecture and design, particularly back in that era, and particularly in America, pre-teens and into the 1920s.

Of course, I'm speaking of the extremely interesting subject of the so-called "amateur" architect, particularly back then---the likes of Leeds, Wilson, Crump, Fownes, Thomas, Behr, Jones, and now apparently Harban too.

Are you under the impression that those men felt they could not or should not practice the art of design and architecture because someone might think they were not "true" designers or because they felt or should feel that they didn't understand it and therefore shouldn't attempt it? ;)

If you actually think that, which it seems you do, and not just this time but on numerous occasions, I'm afraid you are both missing and completely failing to understand one of the most interesting eras and aspects of the history and evolution of golf course architecture.

Yes, Harban, most certainly was considered to be one of the handful of top agronomic researchers and experts in early American agronomy, along with the Wilsons of Merion, Macdonald, and a handful of others like them around the country in conjunction with the likes of Piper and Oakley and Toomey and Flynn et al.

But it appears from this particular article in Golf Illustrated (along with the likes of Wilson of Merion, Crump of PV, Fownes of Oakmont, Leeds of Myopia, Macdonald of NGLA) that he was more than just that---that he was also very much into golf architecture, conceptual and otherwise and golf course design.

To attempt to deny that, in my opinion, would be just another example of revisionism of the facts of the history and evolution of golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 09:50:24 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2006, 01:36:55 PM »
TE
Harban sounds like a fascinating subject...I'm sure we would all benefit from anything you can come up on him. Depending on what you find perhaps you should consider writing an essay.


Craig Disher

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2006, 02:43:36 PM »
Andy,
The right green is slightly threatened by the 7th tee but not much more than the earlier green. Perhaps there were agro problems on the earlier green. By 1951 an additional green had also been built on the 1st hole.

If the 5th green was brought back 50 yards it must have been done very early. Jones Br Road which parallels 6 and runs behind the 5th green seems to stop abruptly in 1937 at the 5th green with  thick woods to the west. Possibly the club had to cede the original 5th green site to the county so it could extend Jones Br Rd to the west.

TEPaul

Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2006, 04:17:06 PM »
"Possibly the club had to cede the original 5th green site to the county so it could extend Jones Br Rd to the west."

Craig:

That's an interesting case. There is a photo that appears to be pretty early that shows the 5th green where it is now but Bob Walton did say one green was about 40-50 years farther out. Maybe that photo can be dated.

Speaking of County or DC or Federal or whatever, obviously that rail easement that runs right through Columbia sort of freaks the club out as to what could possibly happen some day.

Tom MacWood:

I won't be writing any essays on Dr Walter Harban, but I think you should feel free to. I think you should write how Harban didn't feel confident to do anything architecturally at Columbia and so he felt constrained to bring in some "True" designers such as Barker and Travis to do it all for him. Sort of like you think Crump just sat around watching the grass grow for about five years as his crews constructed Pine Valley to Colt's plan or Hugh Wilson couldn't make a move architecturally without consulting a "true" designer like Macdonald.  ;)

I'm just trying to find out how much Harban did there and how many of his architectural ideas were implimented there in the early years following the course's HH Barker redoing of the original 1898 golf course.

Somehow it doesn't seem that logical to assume that Golf Illustrated would've told a fabrication about Harban's architectural knowledge and ideas for the preceding ten years at Columbia that they mentioned in that comprehensive article about the course that preceded the 1921 US Open by a week or so.

But maybe you think I. Lewis Brown, the author of the article, was joking about Harban's interest, knowledge and his ideas done on the course---sort of like you think Bernard Darwin must have been joking when he mentioned that many early English golf courses looked like Steeplechase courses.

Perhaps you think it's just not possible that you could learn anything new on here about a classic course or those responsible for it. Walter Harban, a knowledgeable guy on golf course architecture who put his design ideas into effect on his golf course?? Oh My God, what a novel and crazy idea that is, huh?  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 04:33:17 PM by TEPaul »

Andy Hughes

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Re:Columbia C.C.
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2006, 05:01:00 PM »
Andy,
The right green is slightly threatened by the 7th tee but not much more than the earlier green. Perhaps there were agro problems on the earlier green. By 1951 an additional green had also been built on the 1st hole.

If the 5th green was brought back 50 yards it must have been done very early. Jones Br Road which parallels 6 and runs behind the 5th green seems to stop abruptly in 1937 at the 5th green with  thick woods to the west. Possibly the club had to cede the original 5th green site to the county so it could extend Jones Br Rd to the west.
Craig, thanks, that's interesting. Do you suppose the old 6th would then have to have been a fairly sharp dogleg to the left?
I always check out the 6th hole and 5th green when driving by to see what's going on--now I'll have to peak the other way to see if I can envision a green back in there.
Actually, now that I think about it, there is a county park back in there around the area you are talking about with soccer and baseball fields...maybe they needed that 40-50 yards to create the narrow entrance it currently uses. Or maybe the park is just a bit north? Hard to say sitting here.

A second green on 1? To make it more straightaway?  My one go-around, I never even noticed signs of another green there.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike Cirba

Re: Columbia C.C.
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2010, 05:23:03 PM »
In an effort to foster a new spirit of friendly collaboration on some of these historical issues, I'm pleased to present this 1907 article that hopefully adds somewhat to our understanding of the early history of Columbia.  


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