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ChipOat

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Report from National Golf Links
« on: June 26, 2006, 09:49:40 PM »
With apologies to those who've not played there and can't visualize my references.

I did a thread on this just about a year ago (same title).  Nothing has really changed (except for #13 green) so those looking for greater detail can locate that thread if they wish.

Observations/opinions:

First, if there were any trees left on the interior of the golf course before this year, they're all gone now.  It is really, really neat to be able to see so many different holes from the road and from certain vantage points on the golf course.  The view of the entire 4th green complex from the top of the 2nd fairway is really quite spectacular.  From a playability perspective, the wind is even more of a factor on #'s 3 and (especially) 4 since that valley between the 2 holes is now wide open.  #11 is the only hole that's easier as a result of all this as you can find and play a hooked tee shot now.  Bottom line = the controversial tree removal project has, IMO, been a smashing success.

Second, the newly rediscovered putting surface on the right of #13 green, despite what Tom Paul asserts, is not only pin-able, it's actually a fairly benign hole location.  The reasons are that 1) the green surface doesn't really fall off towards the right bunkers at the edges so putting into them isn't a worry and 2) there is a slight depression that slows down any back-to-front putt which is the really scary part of the rest of that green.  From the tee box, a flagstick over there appears more severe than it really is as it's probably not wise to try and hit it close there but it's not the worst part of the green to putt towards.

Third, and most important from a golf architecture perspective, THE REALLY HARD AND FAST CONDITIONS MAKE THE FAIRWAYS  PLAY MUCH MORE NARROW THAN BEFORE.  IT'S CLEAR THAT THE TRUE GENIUS OF NATIONAL'S DESIGN IS A FUNCTION OF 30+ YARDS OF ROLL OFF THE TEE.  In 2005, the course was set up almost as it must have been before the automated watering system was installed in the 1960's.  That maintenance meld has been continued this year and I can't emphasize enough how much easier it is to drive it through the fairway or off the sides if a well struck drive isn't also precisely aimed - and I MEAN "precisely".  #'s 1, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, and 17 are much more difficult driving holes than before despite the seemingly gigantic expanses of short grass in front of you.  Basically, the damn ball will bounce all over the place and you better play for it.  I can only imagine the challenge pre-1930 with totally baked out conditions plus the small 1.62 ball.

Fourth, there is a new tee box on #15 that is about 20 yards behind and to the left of the (now) old championship location.  Because of the angle, the new markers encourage a draw - bad news for we chronic slicers.

BTW, the tee box on #18 on the far side of the driveway has been abandoned and is no longer maintained.  It made the hole play longer but the tee shot was easier from that angle.

All-in-all, the faster the course plays, the more important it becomes to really control the tee shot - even on the widest fairways.

George_Bahto

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Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 10:03:06 PM »
"I can't emphasize enough how much easier it is to drive it through the fairway or off the sides if a well struck drive isn't also precisely aimed - and I MEAN "precisely".  #'s 1, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, and 17 are much more difficult driving holes than before despite the seemingly gigantic expanses of short grass in front of you.  Basically, the damn ball will bounce all over the place and you better play for it."

..... Chip:  as Mr. Macdonald meant it to be

gb
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2006, 11:43:24 PM »
Chip and George,

I'd also add that # 5, "Hogback" plays like one, with the ball bouncing left or right into less than preferable lies.

The same is true on all the holes, but greatly accentuated on # 15, # 5, # 2, # 11, # 12 and # 18.

Chip,

You forgot to mention the construction work about 30 yards north of the current gates.   It appears that CBM's gates would be better situated to the north, enabling the 18th tee to be extended back.  This would retain the present angle of attack and add the length necessary to keep the left side fairway bunker in play.

The 7th tee should be extended back as well.

The tight conditions make the golf course hum.

As George said, it's as CBM wanted it to play and Bill Salinetti, Mike Conroy, Mike McBride, Parker Gilbert and others should be complimented for their efforts.

The results are impressive.

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2006, 11:54:22 PM »
"I can't emphasize enough how much easier it is to drive it through the fairway or off the sides if a well struck drive isn't also precisely aimed - and I MEAN "precisely".  #'s 1, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, and 17 are much more difficult driving holes than before despite the seemingly gigantic expanses of short grass in front of you.  Basically, the damn ball will bounce all over the place and you better play for it."

..... Chip:  as Mr. Macdonald meant it to be

gb


I played NGLA last summer with Billy Vee. I'll never forget the starter saying "you'll have a great time, these are the widest fairways in America." I drove 11 tee shots into bunkers, and loved every minute of it.
"chief sherpa"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2006, 12:00:20 AM »
Pete,

Chipoat, myself and others were discussing the bunker placements this past friday night.

I marveled at the placement of many bunkers.
Not so much the bunkers meant to interface with the better golfer off the tee, but all of those bunkers the golfer encounters when he hits a less than adequate tee shot.

The bunkers encountered on the next shot are simply briilliant in their placement.

I can't think of another golf course that has bunker placements so perfectly positioned to challenge the recovery shot after a less than adequate tee shot.

And, the bunker placement confronts golfers of every level, not just the better players.

One must learn to recognize their playing limitations, strategize and tack their way around the golf course if they want to meet the challenge presented.

And, as always, the wind is there to thwart your efforts.

Quite simply, there's nothing like NGLA.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2006, 12:21:12 AM »
This course is astounding when in firm and fast conditions.

I remember interviewing some of the older guys who caddied, played and/or worked on the course when it was really firm and fast - especially about hole 12 that was in “softer” conditions at the time. I couldn’t understand the strategy. The ball just landed on the soft fairway and stopped.

Then I discovered where the original tee was, left of 11 green. Now the play over the bunker off the tee-shot!!!!! It began to make more sense.

They told me that it was near impossible to keep the ball on the fairway during those fast and firm conditions because the fairway is tilted in the main landing area - it shunts the tee shot into the bunkering to the right of the fairway. Since the ball was bounding, they said, the tee balls ended up about 275 or more off the tee - most of the time bounding into that bunker.

Next time you’re out there (whoever) ........ take your ball to that spot, in the bunker, and see the problem approach you have hitting to the green - that darn upside-down-looking saucer green. The shot from the bunker to the green is completely over bunkering and waste area.

The 360+ bunkers he put on the course are certainly not “randomly” placed. As Patrick stated, they are pure genius. (1907 - 1910, yet!)
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 12:27:33 AM »
George,

I examined the tee shot from the left of # 11 green, the diagonal bunker complex and fairway contour.

My examination answered the question about the location and configuration of the right side, flat, fairway bunker about 140-100 from the green.

It was clearly intended to "catch" errant golf balls before they ran into the swamp/brush, and balls in that catch bunker have a reasonable approach shot to one of the most interesting greens in golf.

Again, the sheer genius of the architecture repeats itself on every hole in every feature.

There is nothing like NGLA

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 11:23:02 AM »
Bottom line is that the fairways aren't really that wide if the course is set up as originally designed - VERY hard and fast.

I can't believe all those bunkers were so fortuitously placed in 1909.  To me, they are proof that having the original architect on-site to observe how a course plays is a huge advantage in how the finished product turns out.  I'll bet MacDonald made a mental note every time he played for years as to where a poorly struck drive would end up.

A wise man once told me even before the course was returned to the current maintenance meld, "the fairways may be wide, but a bad tee shot here follows you all the way to the hole".  And he is so correct.

Gib_Papazian

Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 12:32:17 PM »
The tee on the right side of #12 is like a zit on Nicole Kidman. To me, it is really simple, I go over to the left of #11  and tee it up  on that flat spot that looks like an old turf nursery.

The Great Bahto showed me the plastic model of the 12th green in the Super-shack; several years later I had the opportunity to sit around (with Neal) with Karl Olson one night in the driveway for several hours.

We should have paid Karl tuition,  . . . . . maybe I should have paid Uncle George too, but that is a story for another day.

The 12th green looked to have been designed as a horseshoe partial-punchbowl. It is not clear (at least to me) if it was constructed that way or changed later.

If I had a vote, the tee would be moved immediately to the left of #11 (safety does not seem an issue to me) and - heresy I know - maybe change the 12th green to reflect the plastic model.


       
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 12:32:58 PM by Gib Papazian »

Peter Galea

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Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 12:38:54 PM »
Bottom line is that the fairways aren't really that wide if the course is set up as originally designed - VERY hard and fast.

The course was very firm and fast, and fairways were magnificent. Maybe I didn't hit it exactly on the line the caddy gave me, but even when I was close the rolls and bounds and bumps were very exciting and serendipitous.
"chief sherpa"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Report from National Golf Links
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 08:20:55 PM »
Gib,

I too have thought about play from a tee to the left of the 11th green on the 12th hole and the alleged issue of safety.

It seems hard to believe that CBM would ignore that element.

With the prevaling wind in your face on # 7, reaching the area to the left of # 11 green on one's second shot is a chore.

Additionally, it is SO FAR left of the mid and prefered line of attack on # 7 that it seems almost impossible to reach.

The 7th green seems to favor an approach from the far right side of the 7th fairway.  The risk/reward of going right, close to the deep fairway bunker adjacent to the 8th tee is clearly evident.

The green opens up from the far right with no need to flirt with either of the two deep bunkers flanking the green.
The deep left side road hole bunker and the deep right side bunker are far easier to avoid when approached from the far right side of the fairway.

The phantom tee left of the 11th green would be a good 60 to 80 to 100 yards left of the right side fairway line.

As such, I don't think the safety feature is substantive, especially if the tee was offset, back toward the road.

The current 12th tees are parallel to the 11th green and offset, back toward the road, especially, the new tee.

If the same configuration was implemented on the left side of the 12th green, I think it would work well.

The next time I visit, I'll look at the area.