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Anthony_Nysse

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Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« on: June 23, 2006, 10:09:30 AM »
Had a chance to play at Yeamans yesterday. There is a good bit of renovation going on there. I do not know if this work is all being done inhouse or is a consultant is being used.The first green is totally being redone. It actually look similar to #5 at Diamond Springs in Michigan. (Mike DeVries/Shuemaker) I don't really feel like it fits with the other 17 greens, especially after seeing CC of Charleston. Along with new bunker work @ #1 green, there is also new bunker work going on at #5 green and #6 green, with #9 green now coming to a 45 degree corner as does #7 green-good stuff. I have pic and I'll try to get them up soon.
  CC of Charleston-WOW-This course is going to blow some people away! Silva and Co. and doing a great job and the course is really taking shape. All the greens have been springed, with the exception of #1 (which is completly square) Most all of the green surrounds and bunker surround have had drainage, bunker liner and sand put in, along with the surrounds being sodded. #8 fairway had been completley redone and has a ridge that runs right down the center and the fairwya runs off to the left and the right. The lions mouth green (#16) is awesome! The green has been restored to having a false front on the left and right of the bunker-It's awesome! The greens all flow together very well with tees located very close. Seems like some of the contouring has been taking out to allow for a little more green speed. I really believe that CC of Charleston will be poping up on a few Top 100 lists in the next few years. Look for CC of Charleston to be the second best course to play in the Charleston area.
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2006, 10:16:52 AM »
Yup.  I rode around it the other day with my boss (who's a member) and it's looking great.  The new fairway bunkering on 18 is going to make it a real round wrecker!
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 10:44:13 AM »
Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on June 23, 2006, 10:09:30 AM
Had a chance to play at Yeamans yesterday. There is a good bit of renovation going on there. I do not know if this work is all being done inhouse or is a consultant is being used.The first green is totally being redone. It actually look similar to #5 at Diamond Springs in Michigan. (Mike DeVries/Shuemaker) I don't really feel like it fits with the other 17 greens, especially after seeing CC of Charleston. Along with new bunker work @ #1 green, there is also new bunker work going on at #5 green and #6 green, with #9 green now coming to a 45 degree corner as does #7 green-good stuff. I have pic and I'll try to get them up soon.
  CC of Charleston-WOW-This course is going to blow some people away! Silva and Co. and doing a great job and the course is really taking shape. All the greens have been springed, with the exception of #1 (which is completly square) Most all of the green surrounds and bunker surround have had drainage, bunker liner and sand put in, along with the surrounds being sodded. #8 fairway had been completley redone and has a ridge that runs right down the center and the fairwya runs off to the left and the right. The lions mouth green (#16) is awesome! The green has been restored to having a false front on the left and right of the bunker-It's awesome! The greens all flow together very well with tees located very close. Seems like some of the contouring has been taking out to allow for a little more green speed. I really believe that CC of Charleston will be poping up on a few Top 100 lists in the next few years. Look for CC of Charleston to be the second best course to play in the Charleston area.

Ran may revoke my login but I am not a great fan of Yeamans Hall and I think considerably less of CCC.

The first green-site with its mounding was an eyesore with me and I was happy to hear that Tom Doak was NOT responsible for that green (Lafoy did it).  It will indeed be an improvement when the mounds are gone.

While the back nine is superb and a few holes such as the redan on the front can stand up to scrutiny, if one looks at Raynor's map of the course in the locker room there are NUMEROUS bunkers that are missing on the front nine holes.  The results of this in my opinion are a wonderful set of greens that are interpretations (Doak's) of the originals but the skeleton of the hole (the bunkering) is sorely missed. To my eye then there are several holes on the front nine that are nice greensites stuck in the middle of a field.  The strategies Raynor  built are gone or mostly gone. On #9, the greenside bunkers are saucers that remind me of Rulewich at Yale. Look at the untouched back bunkers on #9 and see the difference. When they restore all the bunkering on the front nine then Yeamans Hall will be a top 100 candidate but not now in my opinion.  There are far too many better courses.

Now the CCC is another story.  It has two good holes (11 and the lions mouth).  I don't think the topography allowed much better.  When I was there, the greens were probably <50% of their original sizes. They need to do a HUGE amount of work on that place and even then it will NEVER touch top 100 status.  I give it a 4.

Fire away

ps- I've been to YH two separate times and the second for 2 1/2 days of which I spent an entire afternoon riding around with Ron Forse looking at all the features rather then playing.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 10:48:09 AM by Geoffrey Childs »
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TEPaul

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2006, 11:31:06 AM »
Geoffrey:

You are a man of unusual perspicacity.

Consider your login priveleges permanently revoked by Ran Morrissett.  ;)

On Raynor, Ran's philosophy is almost identical to the philosophy of parents of my generation on rude children which was;

"If you can't think of something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

I used to wonder why that had to pertain only to children and not adults until I finally came to understand perhaps the greatest tool in all of life-----hypocrisy.   ;)
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 11:32:57 AM »
I'm interested to know the reasoning behind changing #1 at Yeaman's Hall.  Is it about playability or turf management?  I am also curious to see what they do at CCC.  I chime in with Geoffery Childs.  I'm not a big fan of CCC.  They do have some very interesting holes scuh as the domed par three (#11?) but they also had some vey pedestian holes as well.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 12:09:21 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on June 23, 2006, 11:31:06 AM
Geoffrey:

You are a man of unusual perspicacity.

Consider your login priveleges permanently revoked by Ran Morrissett.  ;)

On Raynor, Ran's philosophy is almost identical to the philosophy of parents of my generation on rude children which was;

"If you can't think of something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

I used to wonder why that had to pertain only to children and not adults until I finally came to understand perhaps the greatest tool in all of life-----hypocrisy.   ;)

Jeez TEP- I had to go to the dictionary to find out you give me a compliment rather then the usual insults I get fired my way  ;D

I had nothing bad at all to say about Raynor.  His plans in the locker room are superb as is the back nine. It's the membership who I would criticize if they don't want to restore all the bunkering on the front nine. This might be one of the 2% of the time Pat is correct where he blames membership and not architects.  ;)
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BigEdSC

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 01:56:25 PM »
On the renovations at YHC:

The gist of all of the work at YHC is to restore the course to the original plans.  The first hole renovations have been in the mix for quite a few years.  Claude has some photographs of YHC in the 30's.  He has one of the first green back then, and after the shaping has taken place, it does look quite similar.

Much of the work this summer is on the front nine and that includes; the first hole, tree thinning, and some bunker restoration.  I do like much of the work that has happened.  Every summer, there are some changes to the course and as a result of this work, the course has changed for the better.  
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 02:46:24 PM »
Quote from: Ed Galbavy on June 23, 2006, 01:56:25 PM
On the renovations at YHC:

The gist of all of the work at YHC is to restore the course to the original plans.  The first hole renovations have been in the mix for quite a few years.  Claude has some photographs of YHC in the 30's.  He has one of the first green back then, and after the shaping has taken place, it does look quite similar.

Much of the work this summer is on the front nine and that includes; the first hole, tree thinning, and some bunker restoration.  I do like much of the work that has happened.  Every summer, there are some changes to the course and as a result of this work, the course has changed for the better.  

Ed -

Since you seem to know what is being done at YH perhaps you can tell us

- How many bunkers are missing on the front nine that are included in the Raynor drawings for the course? Are any missing on the back nine (Prize Dog Leg for example)?

- Why didn't the membership approve putting them back during the work first done by Doak's group? Did they assume the course would be too difficult if it was really restored to plan?

- I assume the mounding on #1 is being removed and the bunkering restored?

I'm glad that changes are being made to improve the course.  It's a charming setting for golf but I still feel it will be WAY WAY over rated until ALL the Raynor plans are instituted.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 03:03:21 PM by Geoffrey Childs »
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jefffraim

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Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2006, 04:36:19 PM »
They have restored the 1st green (double plateau) that LaFoy messed up 10 years ago. Also on #1 they have restored the Principles nose and a bunker on the left side of the fairway, and they are in the process of taking the fairway more to the left. The Double Plateau is going to be treacherous as the plateaus are definitely plateaus. They have taken down the mounding around the green (LaFoy) the scalloped shape to the right greenside bunker (Lafoy), and the front left bunker is completely been taken out to allow shots to run up on the green (LaFoy). Mr. Childs I'll give you a hole by hole.

#2 All bunkering restored a couple added.
#3 All bunkering restored.
#4 All bunkering but Bottle bunker restored. In the middle of the fairway (controversial) to an aging membership.
#5 Bunkering restored except right bunker moved down range to be in play off of the tee. The flattest Alps hole in the world was help in the past month buy raising the bunker face infront of the green to make more of a blind 2nd shot.
#6 All bunkers restored.
#7 All bunkers restored
#8 All but onre bunker 100 yards off the tee on the right (moved down range) restored.
#9 The most change the huge bunker on the right off the tee has been restored and the faces of the other bunkers have been restored. The fairway bunkers should be more in the fairway but it helps with playability.

So with the exception of #9 and the Bottle bunker the front 9 ay YHC is pretty darn close to being completed. So Mr. Childs I just wanted to give you an update on what I feel is a course which includes Seth Raynor's greatest hits. I'll be sure to leave your name at the gate for non-entry. ;)
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2006, 04:49:06 PM »
Quote from: jefffraim on June 23, 2006, 04:36:19 PM
They have restored the 1st green (double plateau) that LaFoy messed up 10 years ago. Also on #1 they have restored the Principles nose and a bunker on the left side of the fairway, and they are in the process of taking the fairway more to the left. The Double Plateau is going to be treacherous as the plateaus are definitely plateaus. They have taken down the mounding around the green (LaFoy) the scalloped shape to the right greenside bunker (Lafoy), and the front left bunker is completely been taken out to allow shots to run up on the green (LaFoy). Mr. Childs I'll give you a hole by hole.

#2 All bunkering restored a couple added.
#3 All bunkering restored.
#4 All bunkering but Bottle bunker restored. In the middle of the fairway (controversial) to an aging membership.
#5 Bunkering restored except right bunker moved down range to be in play off of the tee. The flattest Alps hole in the world was help in the past month buy raising the bunker face infront of the green to make more of a blind 2nd shot.
#6 All bunkers restored.
#7 All bunkers restored
#8 All but onre bunker 100 yards off the tee on the right (moved down range) restored.
#9 The most change the huge bunker on the right off the tee has been restored and the faces of the other bunkers have been restored. The fairway bunkers should be more in the fairway but it helps with playability.

So with the exception of #9 and the Bottle bunker the front 9 ay YHC is pretty darn close to being completed. So Mr. Childs I just wanted to give you an update on what I feel is a course which includes Seth Raynor's greatest hits. I'll be sure to leave your name at the gate for non-entry. ;)

Jeff

I am very happy for the membership and for the legacy of Seth Raynor.  That is what is important - not whether I am banned from the property.

My criticisms were apparently fairly accurate as the golf course that I had visited on two occasions was greatly updated in the interim. Again, if my name is at the gate for non-entry that is fine.  I won't have a chance to change my mind  ;)   Seriously, I'm happy the work was done and I'm sure that Tom Doak and renassance golf did a first rate job.  Congratulations.

PS- by "all bunkers restored" I am assuming that includes ADDING those in the Raynor plans and not just restoring the existing bunkering.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 06:51:29 PM by Geoffrey Childs »
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TEPaul

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2006, 05:19:55 PM »
"Jeez TEP- I had to go to the dictionary to find out you give me a compliment rather than...."

Geoffrey:

Don't worry about it---me insult you?? Perish the thought. And I had to go to the dictionary too to figure out if I should call you a man of unusual perspicacity or a man of unusual perspicuity.

As for Raynor---the truth is, despite what the otherwise generally competent R. Morrissett may think, the man was just another anal engineer type who without the outrageously stunning golf architectural input from one Charles Blair Macdonald had the capacity to make a complete bugger of things. I know for a fact that the highly unusual redan at the CC of Charleston was in actuality the engineering plans for the foundation of some bank barn Raynor was working on. How it got into his design plans for the CC of Charleston is still a miss, mist, ahh, mystery.  ;)
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BigEdSC

Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2006, 01:36:13 PM »
I really can't add too much to what Jeff said about the restoration.  

I really can't comment too much about whether all of the bunkers in the original plan would get put in or why they did not get put in during the greens restoration in 1998.  

However, checking out the green this past Saturday, I was impressed.  There are two distinct plateaus.  The left front plateau is pretty tall and there is not much of a landing area.  It will be one heck of a pin placement.  
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JC Urbina

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Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2006, 01:57:13 PM »
Anthony, I was involved with the first hole and the removal of the mounding and reshaping of the first green known as the Double Plateau.  Under the watch of Jim Yonce all of the bunkers that were not restored during our first tour almost eight years ago are being brought back in to there locations as laid out in a plan by Raynor.  The bunkers that Jeff refers to as being moved down range were done in house many years ago and were not part of our plan in the restoration of Yeamans Hall. Jim has taken on the role as a hard working preservationest for which I am very thankful.
 I have come to realize that eventually all of the original bunkers that are laid out at Yeamans will sooner or later come into play.  When I was laying out the principals nose bunker at Yeamans I came to the conclusion that soon the Nose will be reachable by some strong young kid with the latest technology.  For the record the principals nose is roughly 300 yards of the tee and playing uphill.  I enjoy Yeamans Hall for the simple fact that some of the shots required at the most famous course The National were replicated for people in the south without ever having to make a trip to Long Island New York.  I understand that the land was not as dramatic as its name sake but for me the walk at Yeamans Hall is one of the purest in golf.
A lot of people tell me that they like the course and some say its over rated.  The perfect dilemma for the discussion of what is good or bad in golf course architecture.
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Anthony_Nysse

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Re:Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 05:19:00 PM »
JC,
  I'm sure that #1 will look better after things have grown in and matured-You can see that stuff in the dirt-That's why they pay you the big money!  ;D Playing Yeaman's is truely a steep in time, it's just toobad some people that play there don't "get it." Yeamsn's wouldn't be what it is today without Jim Yonce, no doubt about it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL
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