!4th at Bandon Trails-what am I missing?

« **on:** June 22, 2006, 12:06:38 AM »

Just returned from a great trip to Bandon- played all 3 courses twice and enjoyed Dunes more than ever-
For those of you who have played the Trails course- I thought it was excellent and loved a lot of the holes. I'm having a bit of a problem with the short par 4 14th. At 325 from the back it is driveable, although trying to drive the green and hitting it anywhere left is death. Most people hit something down to the bottom of the hill that slopes to the right way below the green and are faced with an extremely difficult wedge to a hard green from a very tight lie--and if the pin is on the front you have no chance.
See- in my mind a good short par 4 should allow a low and high handicap player an excellent chance to make birdie- and if a long driver wants to take more risk he can try to drive the hole knowing that he may pay a severe penalty. The 10th hole at Riviera is the perfect example of this- a great hole in everyone's estimation.
But at the 14th at Trails, it just seemed like no one had a good chance to make birdie- in fact you could go back and forth across the green from bunker to collection area and make a huge number- especially with that front pin. Certainly the back pin placements are more accessible, but the second shots in are still very difficult.

« **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:15:48 AM »

Wayne -

There has been MANY a thread about the 14th at Trails - it is, in all likelihood, the single most discussed hole of the 54 at Bandon.

Many (and I would guess the majority) would tell you that you are not missing anything.

I, having only played it once, feel unqualified to strongly agree or disagree with your conclusion. I agree with your premises that it does not offer an easy birdie, but I do not necessarily think that is a disqualifier for a hole striving to be a good short par 4.

I will say this, love it or hate it, I am at the very least happy to see the fact that the hole was built in the first place - it's a risky hole and one that I would guess C&C knew would be controversial.

Of all of the holes in Bandon, I would say that the 14th at Trails is the one that I am most eager to play again...not because I think it is a great hole, but because it is so divisive amongst a group of people well qualified to assess its relative merits and shortcomings.

When I played it, I wiped my Driver to about 50 yards short of the green in the collection area to the lower right, and then nipped what I thought was a perfect semi-flop lob wedge right at the middle pin that came up about a yard short and caught the top edge of the bunker. From that point, I blasted to around 10 feet and missed my putt. The rest of the group did not fare as well as I did.

So at least that gives you some perspective as to where I am coming from - I probably played the hole as most do - from the lower right and then missing the green short.

Either way, you can pull a search out of the archives as I recall a very lengthy discussion that concluded some time around February or March of this year on this very hole, but I find the hole intriguing and fascinating in part because of what it is, but maybe even moreso because of how people react to it.

« **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:23:17 AM »

I've played it three times. Each time I played to the left portion of the fairway on the ridge--so pretty much approaching the green from straight on. Each time I played a decently struck short wedge onto the green. None of them stayed on the green and each time my third stroke was played from the hole behind the green. I don't think you have missed anything. I think its the worst-designed hole on the golf course.

« **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:37:16 AM »

Lyman,

maybe after three times with the same strategy and failing each time you need to look at a new way of playing the hole.
I find it interresting that when a par 4 is 459+ yards it can be a great hole even even if you struggle to par it but a 'drivable' one is suddenly a bad hole if you struggle to birdie it. For a site where so many people moan about the idiotic length of courses and that many classic courses are now to short to be challanging this seems to be a little strange.
When I find such a hole I look for why it is difficult to play and usually there is a way to use the strengths of my game to overcome them. If I can't then I have to accept it. Come on guys don't blame the hole for your inability to birdie it, where you sense of CHALLENGE!!!!

« **Reply #4 on:** June 22, 2006, 01:15:49 AM »

Quote from: Lyman Gallup on June 22, 2006, 12:23:17 AM

I've played it three times. Each time I played to the left portion of the fairway on the ridge--so pretty much approaching the green from straight on. Each time I played a decently struck short wedge onto the green. None of them stayed on the green and each time my third stroke was played from the hole behind the green. I don't think you have missed anything. I think its the worst-designed hole on the golf course.

its brilliance is that the golfer expects a short 4 to be an easy 4 (especially downhill)... and with a well executed approach, a good chance at 3. in short, the 14th is NOT an easy 4. in fact, despite its length, its a very difficult 4, rewarding only the absolutely perfect approach/drive (not "decent" or "pretty much").

its in the psychology of it all. the golfer gets on the tee and thinks "great, a short par 4! maybe i can get one back here"... when in fact you're better to take your 4 (or 5) and run to the next tee and try to make birdie on the much more receptive (though LONGER) 15th.

again, brilliant.

« **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2006, 01:25:35 AM »

Lyman- I'm pretty much in your camp- I think after any sort of decent tee shot you need to be absolutely perfect to put your next one on the green.
See if you go back to the 10th at Riviera- it too can be very punishing because it has a very narrow approach and skinny green- but everyone has a chance there because a high handicap driver or low handicap iron approach will still leave a full type wedge which although still is demanding gives everyone a chance.
Maybe as Jon intimates, C and C wanted to really confound andconfuse us, making that short hole one of the most difficult to score on.

« **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2006, 02:02:36 AM »

Wayne,
I've played the hole 6 times, attempting an approach from all different directions. I couldn't agree with you more, as you will see on some of the earlier threads. Basically, there is no good option from the tee, (unlike the 10th at Riviera) which makes it the worst of the holes at Bandon. And what's with that routing to get there......

« **Reply #7 on:** June 22, 2006, 09:01:15 AM »

I'd certainly agree that the 14th at Trails is not an easy (short) par 4. However even the hole with the clown's mouth at the local miniature golf course can meet that definition. Just the simple fact that it is difficult is not enough, for me, to consider it a great or even good golf hole.

Even though I have always tried to play it with the same strategy, I have considered and observed the play of good players from other landing areas. The approach from straight on, as I have tried to play it, provides the deepest and arguably the largest landing area for the second shot and the approach is played from almost the level of the green. Certainly my wedge play could be the culprit. Drives played into the hollow to the right leave a very shallow landing area for the second shot from 30 to 40 feet below the level of the green--an even more difficult wedge shot I believe. Any drive between those two areas leaves a very sloping stance. A problem with any approach, I think, is that the green has two cross ridges that slope away from the golfer and any ball that lands or bounces on one of those slopes is highly likely to go off the back of the green.

Now perhaps the appropriate response is that the good player must be able to control the length his wedge carries to within a couple of yards and be able to land the ball safely on one of the three levels of the green. However each of those levels, especially the second and third, are fairly small and (bad) luck in having the ball land or bounce on one of those slopes plays far too great a role, in my opinion.

So regardless of my misfortunes in playing the hole, I still cannot find any redeeming value in #14 at Trails except the view from the tee. And Mark Leo's point about the routing to get there is spot on--might as well catch the e-train.

« **Reply #8 on:** June 22, 2006, 09:42:53 AM »

I guess we disagree because I think it's the best hole on the course. If you go right, you can't even think about birdie. You're playing for par and you'll probably have to play around the bunker to the left. So, the question on the hole is how much club to hit off the tee. You could hit iron and have a more full shot to the green (I haven't tried this), hit something like a 3 wood 20-30 yards short of the green (I've done this, it works well), or try to drive the green (a friend of mine hit it to five feet and made eagle). You have to approach the hole carefully and you can end up in places where it's nearly impossible to hit your next shot on the green. But, you can plot your way around the hole no matter where you are. I think it's a brilliant, strategic hole, unique and very memorable.

« **Reply #9 on:** June 22, 2006, 09:49:31 AM »

I don't like the hike from 13 green to 14 tee.

But I don't mind it once I arrive there.

Because I'm with Tim Pitner - I find this to be a fascinating, and yes, great golf hole, the one I keep coming back to in my reminiscing about my two rounds there. I'd agree with Tim completely in saying "it's a brilliant, strategic hole, unique and very memorable."

And I'd ask Wayne this: who says a short par four has to be allow for a reasonable birdie for anyone? There are plenty of holes that do that. There are precicous few on which scores from 2-10 are possible for all handicaps.

I love the hole.

But Wayne and Lyman, you're not alone in seeing few redeeming qualities in it - Ryan's right - the discussion on this hole has always been great, with many divergent views.

TH

« **Reply #10 on:** June 22, 2006, 09:51:06 AM »

Quote from: Tim Pitner on June 22, 2006, 09:42:53 AM

I guess we disagree because I think it's the best hole on the course. If you go right, you can't even think about birdie. You're playing for par and you'll probably have to play around the bunker to the left. So, the question on the hole is how much club to hit off the tee. You could hit iron and have a more full shot to the green (I haven't tried this), hit something like a 3 wood 20-30 yards short of the green (I've done this, it works well), or try to drive the green (a friend of mine hit it to five feet and made eagle). You have to approach the hole carefully and you can end up in places where it's nearly impossible to hit your next shot on the green. But, you can plot your way around the hole no matter where you are. I think it's a brilliant, strategic hole, unique and very memorable.

Exactly...I think as much as any hole on the course you need to play from the correct tees for your ability. I don't remember who said it above but I don't believe in any way that a high handicap should have a good shot at birdie on any hole from a championship tee...It makes no sense. High handicaps should make a lucky par now and then and that is about it. Like I said...play the correct tees and this hole comes alive.

« **Reply #11 on:** June 22, 2006, 09:54:06 AM »

Huck,

I like the walk...I start thinking about it as I walk to the 13th green. The little path off the back of 13 green is like a gate to hell for a fat man..

« **Reply #12 on:** June 22, 2006, 10:01:10 AM »

JK - so I guess the implication is that since you are no longer a fat man, you love it!

Well bully for you.

As a still-relatively fat man, it's a long hike up a hill and while I wouldn't call it a gate to hell, it's not exactly my idea of fun. BUT... knowing what's at the end of it makes it acceptable to me.

TH

« **Reply #13 on:** June 22, 2006, 10:03:42 AM »

Huck,

Does everything have to be pleasant to be good. What is wrong with a little pain if you get a treat at the end. The walk about killed me...

« **Reply #14 on:** June 22, 2006, 10:04:52 AM »

It's a nutty hole. It's a quirky hole. It's a memorable hole. It can be an unfair hole. It's controversial.

Seems like Coore and Crenshaw did a good job!

« **Reply #15 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:29:59 PM »

never played the hole, but just curious if you were to play something like a 5 iron off the tee and leave a nice full shot into the green that is more likely to hold the green. would thids be a viable option.

« **Reply #16 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:35:13 PM »

Quote from: Racetrack_George on June 22, 2006, 12:29:59 PM

never played the hole, but just curious if you were to play something like a 5 iron off the tee and leave a nice full shot into the green that is more likely to hold the green. would thids be a viable option.

That is a VERY viable option. And yes, some spin would help on the pitch, so it does make a lot of sense.

You just have to understand a few more things about the hole though:

1. It is REALLY down-hill, or at least looks like it is.

2. The fairway is pretty wide, or at least looks like it is.

Thus it's exceedingly difficult to play that smart and resist all the temptresses luring you to go for the green....

TH

« **Reply #17 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:39:44 PM »

Quote from: Racetrack_George on June 22, 2006, 12:29:59 PM

never played the hole, but just curious if you were to play something like a 5 iron off the tee and leave a nice full shot into the green that is more likely to hold the green. would thids be a viable option.

Yes, something like a 5 iron off the tee is definitely an option, but it still leaves a hard second shot because, depending on the pin position, the landing area could be quite small. The better play, I think, is to try to be just short of the green and play a little runner in. You can better control that shot from closer in.

« **Reply #18 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:44:33 PM »

I don't know if a 5 iron could reach the fairway, but the other thing to keep in mind is that the green is quite small, and is fairly narrow target even when you are coming straight into it from the left side. So you can't afford to lay back too much off the tee, I don't think I would be wanting to hit more than 9 iron in for my game.
I really like the hole, but I don't consider it the best one at BT. That award would go to #15, #4, #13, #16 or #17. What makes #14 so good IMO is that no matter what you do, every shot is going to be challenging. It's not a hole where you hit a great drive and your work is done. Of short par 4's at the Bandon complex, #6 PD is my fave.

« **Reply #19 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:47:07 PM »

Ed - that all makes great sense.

And I absolutely LOVE #6 PD. Ever since playing it a few years ago, I've cited it as not only among my personal faves of short par fours, but among the world's best. It is a great, great golf hole.

I just have a hard time now saying it's clearly better than 14 BT... I really do like that hole as well... and it grows on me the more I think about it.

Man I am calling it a toss-up. And to me that is one hell of a compliment to the hole in the forest.

« **Reply #20 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:49:22 PM »

Played it once last April and took a 4 iron from the tee and now wished I had done what Tom says and hit a fairway wood of some kind to be closer.
I still think that with the pin up front, it is goofy. An approach must be absolutely on line or it will fall off right to the bunker or left to the collection area and you can play back and forth because the green is so narrow at that point.
If you are taking a short pitch into the green with some spin, you would be more likely to stay on.
If the pin were in the much larger back portion of the green, it would be much easier. Maybe the key, with the pin uip front, is to go long on the approach and putt back.
It certainly is an interesting hole but to me, with the pin up front, it is still goofy. Would love to try it again, however.

Bob J.

« **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:55:41 PM »

Tom,
You're right, it is a tough call at Bandon, but #7 Sand Hills is the best short par 4 IMO. You look at that hole and you think there is NO reason in the world you shouldn't be able to make a birdie there on a regular basis, and yet they are hard to come by. The BT/PD holes in question don't scream birdie opportunity to me as much as SH. I think you can easily make higher numbers on the BT hole, and birdie is tough there too, but I expect birdie to be tough on #14, and at SH #7 I don't.
So I guess what I'm saying is the differential between how easy a hole looks and how hard it is in actuality is one way of defining the greatness of a hole. I haven't played #10 Riviera, but I would imagine it is similar to #7 SH where it looks so easy, but just isn't.

« **Reply #22 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:57:37 PM »

Quote from: ed_getka on June 22, 2006, 12:55:41 PM

Tom,
You're right, it is a tough call at Bandon, but #7 Sand Hills is the best short par 4 IMO. You look at that hole and you think there is NO reason in the world you shouldn't be able to make a birdie there on a regular basis, and yet they are hard to come by. The BT/PD holes in question don't scream birdie opportunity to me as much as SH. I think you can easily make higher numbers on the BT hole, and birdie is tough there too, but I expect birdie to be tough on #14, and at SH #7 I don't.
So I guess what I'm saying is the differential between how easy a hole looks and how hard it is in actuality is one way of defining the greatness of a hole. I haven't played #10 Riviera, but I would imagine it is similar to #7 SH where it looks so easy, but just isn't.

Ed - that is exceedingly well said, and was the gist of what I was getting at in shivas' thread re short par fours.

So you've convinced me: #7 Sand Hills is better than either of these.

Only this... #8 from the middle tees is even better than #7 there in this respect, if not all.

« **Reply #23 on:** June 22, 2006, 01:06:20 PM »

#8 SH doesn't have quite the differential of #7 IMO. # 8 is guarded by the front central bunkers and those off to the sides, and there is a two-tier green. So on #8 I feel like I need a more precise drive, and a more precise approach shot. You are absolutely right that #8 is another great short par 4, it just doesn't give me that pushover feeling of #7.
On #8 during one round, someone ended up long over the green, the pin was down left center, just below the tier. The chip he hit looked pretty good. The front bunker will be the 6 o'clock position to give you a visual. The chip came from 10 o'clock, and then went clockwise around the green until it ended up in the front bunker. It was like watching the swirl of a flushed toilet. C&C are devious.

« **Reply #24 on:** June 22, 2006, 01:11:04 PM »

Ed:

Hmmmm.... given the angling off of the plateau on which sits 7 green, combined with the pit of doom bunker on the left, that hole requires a long hard hook to actually get it on the green. Anything else rolls off to the right.

Compare to #8 (from the middle tees) - one can play a fade, draw, or straight ball and reach the surface. The best way is to play it up the left and let the contours take it on...

Perhaps it is just me - fading the ball is a lot easier than hitting a long hard draw - but I stand on 7 tee and hope to leave a decent pitch. I have zero expectations of reaching the green. I know if I can get it to the base of the hill on the right, it's not that tough of a shot... so I am thinking three... but I'm never thinking two.

On 8 tee, I am thinking if I hit a half-way decent drive I can get it on. So yes, I am thinking two.

Of course the possibilities and variables are endless on 8 once the green is missed... and pin position can change things for sure....

Heck, they are both great holes. I just do prefer #8. It lures me like freakin' Teri Hatcher to take a swing at the green. On 7, I know I have as much chance as actually scoring with her as I do to get on on that green.

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