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Dave Bourgeois

Client's Wishes
« on: June 06, 2006, 04:01:26 PM »
I'm curious to know if when contracted to design a course how often the client insists that a particular concept or type of hole (i.e. par 3 over an irrigation pond) be incorporated.  

Are there any famous examples of this and how as architects do you retain your philosophies and style for the project in the face of the request?

Have requests like this ever lead to a wholesale change in a routing (not counting both 9s returning to the clubhouse)?

Have you ever presented a routing plan under 6,900 yards and been told to find another 101 no matter how this compromised the overall design?
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2006, 05:04:10 PM »
Far too often.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2006, 06:07:28 PM »
Dave:

Absolutely, the client has his "wish list" and we usually do our best to incorporate what we can as long as it doesn't mess with the site.

At Sebonack, Michael Pascucci was spending $100 million of his own money on the project.  You don't think he might want some say in what he got for that?  He told me there were three holes he'd like to see something like in the finished product -- the fourth at Bethpage Black, the twelfth at Augusta, and the eighteenth at Muirfield Village.  (That's his list of favorites, not mine.)

Fortunately, he told me that after I had already done a routing for the course.  We had to put a pond somewhere [two, actually], so his Augusta-like hole (not in plan view, just a tough par 3 over water) became #8.  We convinced him that the ninth hole was enough like the fourth at the Black.  But the eighteenth at Muirfield Village we just forgot about.

Interestingly, when I saw Nicklaus' early routings for the course afterward, they had tried to include the par-3 and the MV hole as the 17th and 18th, and to design the rest of the course around it.  And I think that's why Michael was not pleased with their routings -- not because they were pandering to him, but because they didn't find the best natural holes first.

As to your last question, no, I've never been told we had to get the course up over 7000 yards.  But when Beechtree came out at 6,999 yards (no kidding) the client did decide to build a back tee on the 18th to get it up over the magic number.
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Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006, 06:31:41 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on June 06, 2006, 06:07:28 PM
Dave:

Absolutely, the client has his "wish list" and we usually do our best to incorporate what we can as long as it doesn't mess with the site.

At Sebonack, Michael Pascucci was spending $100 million of his own money on the project.  You don't think he might want some say in what he got for that?  He told me there were three holes he'd like to see something like in the finished product -- the fourth at Bethpage Black, the twelfth at Augusta, and the eighteenth at Muirfield Village.  (That's his list of favorites, not mine.)

Fortunately, he told me that after I had already done a routing for the course.  We had to put a pond somewhere [two, actually], so his Augusta-like hole (not in plan view, just a tough par 3 over water) became #8.  We convinced him that the ninth hole was enough like the fourth at the Black.  But the eighteenth at Muirfield Village we just forgot about.

Interestingly, when I saw Nicklaus' early routings for the course afterward, they had tried to include the par-3 and the MV hole as the 17th and 18th, and to design the rest of the course around it.  And I think that's why Michael was not pleased with their routings -- not because they were pandering to him, but because they didn't find the best natural holes first.

As to your last question, no, I've never been told we had to get the course up over 7000 yards.  But when Beechtree came out at 6,999 yards (no kidding) the client did decide to build a back tee on the 18th to get it up over the magic number.

Tom:

It has been said that the 8th at Sebonack is its weakest hole. I have to agree.

What is your opinion?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 06:34:02 PM by Voytek Wilczak »
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Ryan Farrow

Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2006, 06:35:10 PM »
You couldnt just round up for him?

How are yardages measured anyways? two club lenghts from the back of the back tee to the middle of each green?

Doglegs, uphill, downhill.....we all know its not that exact. Or is it?




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Tom_Doak

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 07:24:44 PM »
Ryan:

Sure, we could have lied when the course was measured.  (The USGA was lying about Shinnecock's yardage in 1995; they added a hundred yards in 2004 but only picked up about fifty on the card.)  In fact, I suspect that 50% of the time you see a golf course between 7000 and 7025, it is probably a lie to get it over 7000.   But Beechtree measured out to 6999, and I'm not a liar, and neither is Mr. Knott, so he built another tee.

Voytek:

There are a bunch of connotations of "weakest hole."

If you mean is it the easiest hole on the course, that's certainly not the case.  It might be one of the hardest in relation to par, and there's no bailout where you can make a certain four, either.  For some people that is its weakness, but that is also the main similarity between the 8th at Sebonack and the 12th at Augusta.  In plan, they're not that similar, but they are both unscrupulous.

If you mean it is the least interestingly designed hole on the course, that's a matter of taste.

I will only say that if there was another possible location for the main irrigation reservoir, I would have recommended the other location and been happy to build a great par-3 without the pond, but there was not another possible location, and the client was happier that way.
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Kyle Harris

Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2006, 08:39:27 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on June 06, 2006, 07:24:44 PM
Ryan:

Sure, we could have lied when the course was measured.  (The USGA was lying about Shinnecock's yardage in 1995; they added a hundred yards in 2004 but only picked up about fifty on the card.)  In fact, I suspect that 50% of the time you see a golf course between 7000 and 7025, it is probably a lie to get it over 7000.   But Beechtree measured out to 6999, and I'm not a liar, and neither is Mr. Knott, so he built another tee.

Strangely, Beechtree never at one point felt "long."

In fact, I am surprised to hear it is that long, and we played it from all the way back.
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Ryan Farrow

Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2006, 08:45:44 PM »
Tom, I tried so hard to not say lie..... O well.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2006, 08:51:05 PM »
Ryan,

Yes, ohmigod, yes.

I have built Island greens, fand I am now redesiging a course because the Owner has decided on an "Irish" Theme." I haven't had to reroute a course to build a particular hole, but sometimes scramble as Tom describes to find the hole that is the best candidate to knock into shape as the one desired.

I have found that if a course measures out to XX75 to XX99, the Owner wants us to find a way to round it up to over YY00.  Getting over 7200 yards seems more common now, and a year ago I had four courses in a row come out at 7201.....
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2006, 09:00:18 PM »
What is going to make this new course an Irish theme?  Does he want some fescue planted, and a few pot bunkers.  Does the site have potential for a linksy feel?

Why don't developers ask for a Swinley Forest feel?
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Ryan Farrow

Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2006, 09:09:06 PM »
Jeff, there is nothing mediocre about 4 7,201 yard courses in a row.    




Architects, has an owner ever come to completely trust your design philosophies based on your past success?  Is this something that you can do now unlike earlier on in your career where you would just grin and bear it?
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2006, 10:30:19 PM »
Ryan:  In general, I think I get a healthy amount of trust from most of my clients -- from some more than others, of course.  At Tumble Creek and Ballyneal there wasn't any second-guessing at all, and the client at Stone Eagle was remarkably relaxed considering how much money we were spending there.  But those are the exceptions, and not the rule.  Most clients want to be involved as more than just cheerleaders.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2006, 10:38:55 PM »
Ryan,

Hmm, I suppose it coooouuuuulldddd happen......

Actually, as I get more recognition I seem to get more trust.  The line, "Trust me, golfers love this crap...." passes muster more and more these days.  (First use of that line was on the footprint bunker at Giants Ridge, and the logo has sold them a bazillion bucks of merchandise, probably to wayward North Carolinians)  By and large, the clients that have given some general direction and let me go (perhaps adding their $0.02 occaisionally along the way) have gotten my best work, so I think your theory is basically correct.  And, its a lot more pleasant if they basically trust you, but, as they say, cut the cards, just in case.


Quote from: Dave Bourgeois on June 06, 2006, 09:00:18 PM
What is going to make this new course an Irish theme?  Does he want some fescue planted, and a few pot bunkers.  Does the site have potential for a linksy feel?

Why don't developers ask for a Swinley Forest feel?

Its sort of north Texas prairie, but if you squint, it could look like Ireland's grasses, but not their famous dunes, and its about a bazillion trees short of a forest.....We will put in some pots and smaller, clustered bunkers, the Dell hole, and others to be determined, etc.

Anyone know what the unit price for a Leprechaun is?
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_beene

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2006, 11:14:02 PM »
OK Jeff,I know that Jerry Jones doesn't read this site.I went and got a Cowboys scorecard:7017 yards.18 says 519,I think its 490 unless it is measured as a double dogleg.As an aside ,I accidentally got within 3 feet of a big mocassin right of the right fairway bunker,who said golf doesn't require speed.Also a bobcat walked up to us on the 10th tee.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2006, 11:34:46 PM »
Mike,

I have seen mocs and bobcats myself out there.  They said it was a tough course full of hazards, right?

I don' know what the actual measurements are, since the local golf association measures it.  I would say the 519 yards does include the zig zag to either side of the bunkers splitting the fairways and it is shorter straight on.  That, of course, being the point.

The tee was supposed to go back a bit, but there was an Indian historic site we had to preserve.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_beene

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Re:Client's Wishes
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 11:58:05 PM »
Jeff,I'm going way left next time.They have the greens playing like Scotland.That is one great set of greens you built.You probably cant control this but they have been putting the back tee on 5 right behind the tree.Our goal was to cross the hazard as far up as we could.I guess the 490 yards wasnt a tough enough 4 for the tee placement man.
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