Did Bernhardt Really Say Ballyneal Isn't As Good As The Pictures?

« **on:** May 28, 2006, 12:45:10 PM »

Well, if he did, he's wrong. I played three rounds last week and it's a lot more fun to play than to look at.

I took some pictures, too, but they're good so I don't want to post them and give anyone a false impression.

« **Reply #1 on:** May 28, 2006, 03:16:02 PM »

Tom,
I would be suprised if Tiger said something like that as it sounds out of character. However, even if he did it is an opinion, and I'm sure he would be happy to back up his opinion with specific examples.

« **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2006, 07:51:20 PM »

Tell us more, Tom!

Which holes were the most fun and why? Were those the ones you expected to be the most fun when you designed it?

« **Reply #3 on:** May 28, 2006, 09:09:50 PM »

Quote from: Adam Clayman on May 28, 2006, 09:03:05 PM

Tom was a generous guide, as he described lots of internal geeky minutae. 'How much fill here', 'what was here before' and, what we did there, kind of stuff. I suppose that only a certain level of geek would appreciate and absorb like a kid in an arcade for the first time.

Count me in as a (fascinated) geek, then.

That would be incredibly interesting, especially on such an undulating site.

« **Reply #4 on:** May 28, 2006, 11:17:40 PM »

At home in Oregon we have a running joke. If you hit a great shot, you can have 15 seconds to describe it. So if you'd like to describe your birdie from the left fairway bunker on #7, go ahead and take your 15.

Amazing how stories float around, isn't it?

« **Reply #5 on:** May 28, 2006, 11:28:46 PM »

Can I take the I am over 50 and can not remember if I said that or not excuse? lol I do think the tone of my comments to Adam were more around the overall site not being as good as Sand Hills rather than any comment about a hole or holes much less pictures of holes. The holes I saw, 5 or 6, were great golf holes. It is tough to find as pure a location as Sand Hills. The world seems to be only golf and miles of Sand Hills with ones imagination leaving one wondering if the ocean is not over the next sand ridge. Ballyneal does not let one make the total escape from reality with the sand hills stoping close to the property and the highway is on the horizon. Also, it is relevant to point out if one had not gone to Sand Hills first and merely left the Denver airport and drove to Ballyneal, all this chat about escape would be lost on you. Ballyneal is on a beautiful and incredibly remote area of NE Colorado. Its only flaw is that all comparisons are going to be to the number one course in America. I faced a beating by Dick Daley by going to Wild Horse after Sand Hills as well.

« **Reply #6 on:** May 28, 2006, 11:46:50 PM »

John,

You can blame it on the fact that you spent your last day in Arizona playing with a couple of yankees who made NASCAR look slow-paced and leisurely.

Thankfully, you missed the drive to the airport, or you'd still be winded and disoriented and unable to appreciate the fact that you were even in Colorado, much less provide any reasonably intelligent feedback.

Thanks, Tiger, for bearing with our ridiculously tight schedule, and it was great to see you and play together again, however brief and rushed.

« **Reply #7 on:** May 29, 2006, 09:39:20 AM »

Mike It was a pleasure to watch that poetry in motion, which we call your golf swing. It was great to catch up a bit as well. I played on in and ran into a few of the guys for a few holes and lunch. I am almost sure to see Scott Wood in Palm Springs this weekend. Oh yes, thanks for taking some of the heat of me for not going to Ballyneal and Wildhorse before Sand Hills. lol There is that wonderful phrase "all men die, but few really live" I am really living large when one gets to play at Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills Machrihanish, Cypress Point and many other places when the course is empty and the air fresh. It leaves us knowing golf really is the greatest game and how lucky we are to love it and live it.

« **Reply #8 on:** May 29, 2006, 10:53:15 AM »

Quote from: Tiger_Bernhardt on May 29, 2006, 09:39:20 AM

Mike It was a pleasure to watch that poetry in motion, which we call your golf swing. It was great to catch up a bit as well. I played on in and ran into a few of the guys for a few holes and lunch. I am almost sure to see Scott Wood in Palm Springs this weekend. Oh yes, thanks for taking some of the heat of me for not going to Ballyneal and Wildhorse before Sand Hills. lol There is that wonderful phrase "all men die, but few really live" I am really living large when one gets to play at Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills Machrihanish, Cypress Point and many other places when the course is empty and the air fresh. It leaves us knowing golf really is the greatest game and how lucky we are to love it and live it.

John,

I'm not sure about "poetry in motion", unless you're talking about Ginsberg's "Howl". In fact, I could have sworn one of my playing partners yesterday mentioned something under his breath about St. Vitus Dance after one of my shots, but perhaps I was simply mistaken.

Say hi to Scott and everyone for me in Palm Springs, please.

You are indeed living larger than life, my friend. God bless.

« **Reply #9 on:** May 29, 2006, 11:06:54 AM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 28, 2006, 12:45:10 PM

Well, if he did, he's wrong. I played three rounds last week and it's a lot more fun to play than to look at.

I took some pictures, too, but they're good so I don't want to post them and give anyone a false impression.

Interesting comments Mr Doak. I thought that this site was a place for frank discussion of golf courses. As far as I can tell this is still somewhat subjective and individual tastes will vary. I have been "warned" about something referred to as "most favored architect status on GCA" and we appear to have a case of this with this discussion you started.

Please do tell us why Mr. Bernhardt is wrong if indeed he did say what you claim? You lose respect with your blatant attempts at self-promotion and ridicule of others' opinions on this site. I find your conduct unbecoming of such a respected member of the GCA community and of a golf course architect.

« **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2006, 12:08:42 PM »

Kev, lighten up. Your comments on this thread are the ones that are unbecoming. Anytime an architect - any architect, perceived favored status or not - chooses to share his passion, he should be applauded, not childishly criticised.

« **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2006, 12:18:41 PM »

Kevin, I did not take it that way at all. A little good natured poke at my teasing of Adam's enthusiam for this project led to this. Tom knows me and my respect for his work. Many of us on here have heard Tom is very pleased with how this course is turning out. I have not seen him since that trip to ask him that face to face though. We are fortunate to have a number of the best and brightest of that profession participate on here. Young, Bauer, Baxter, Nuzz, Devries and Neal for starters. I have learned so much from them and others on here. Tom has a high profile course on Long Island opening soon and in my opinion he has show great restraint in his comments about it. Anyway Ballyneal will get plenty of frank discussion once it opens for it is a neighborhood that sets a very high bar. Jim at the Meadow Club and Rupert have a lot to be proud of. They are making a dream come true and doing so in style. I am still chasing it.

« **Reply #12 on:** May 29, 2006, 12:48:09 PM »

Are we going to get to see some pictures?

« **Reply #13 on:** May 29, 2006, 12:52:42 PM »

Kevin,

Tom Doak doesn't need me to defend him . . . but I will anyway. One thing I've observed about Mr. Doak is that he has very strong opinions about golf courses and he likes what he likes. Not surprisingly, he tries to build what he likes. So, if one of his courses comes out well, in his opinion, he's going to think positively of the course. I don't see it as self-promotion at all.

« **Reply #14 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:25:59 PM »

Well, Pebble Beach isn't as good as the pictures either.

« **Reply #15 on:** May 29, 2006, 02:17:41 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on May 29, 2006, 12:08:42 PM

Kev, lighten up. Your comments on this thread are the ones that are unbecoming. Anytime an architect - any architect, perceived favored status or not - chooses to share his passion, he should be applauded, not childishly criticised.

Let's see now George. Tiger Bernhardt makes a couple of comments IN PRIVATE to a companion or friend about Ballyneal. This fellow then tells Tom Doak about the comments that may not have been all glowing. So instead of sending a private message or email asking Tiger what the possible problem might be or trying to explain, Mr Doak starts a discussion in a public forum (GCA) telling Bernhardt he is wrong. You don't see a problem with that? I do. Is the Doak ego so large that a chance comment in private has to be aired on GCA such that heaven forbid someone else might think the same thing again certainly no one would dare utter it out loud so as not to be embarrassed in public that he is wrong.

While it is one of the highlights of this website to have esteemed architects commenting this blind defense of one of the anointed ones on this thread just makes the point.

« **Reply #16 on:** May 29, 2006, 02:34:01 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Edwards on May 29, 2006, 11:06:54 AM

I have been "warned" about something referred to as "most favored architect status on GCA" and we appear to have a case of this with this discussion you started.

You couldn't have figured that out in all of ten minutes browsing through the discussion forum yourself?

Any architect who takes the time to post in this forum deserves some kind of favoritism, and if not that at least some respect.

« **Reply #17 on:** May 29, 2006, 02:40:48 PM »

Quote from: Ryan Farrow on May 29, 2006, 02:34:01 PM

Quote from: Kevin Edwards on May 29, 2006, 11:06:54 AM

I have been "warned" about something referred to as "most favored architect status on GCA" and we appear to have a case of this with this discussion you started.

You couldn't have figured that out in all of ten minutes browsing through the discussion forum yourself?

Any architect who takes the time to post in this forum deserves some kind of favoritism, and if not that at least some respect.

Ryan

Respect is someting that is earned. I would have respected Tom if he had used the same time he took to air this in public and used it to email Bernhardt in private to see if there was a problem.

« **Reply #18 on:** May 29, 2006, 02:59:14 PM »

Gee Kevin, It seems you did not read my response to you. No one is bothered by any of this but you.

« **Reply #19 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:00:21 PM »

Kevin, what you are missing, whilst engulfed in cynicism, is that there are many of us on here who want to hear the exchange between Tom and Tiger. We have been on the site for 5, 6, 7 years now, and have developed many friendships. We understand the exchanges. I haven't met Tom or Tiger, but I am very familiar with both from posts on here, and welcome the opportunity to eavesdrop on their debate.

And if you think my defending Tom is evidence of the problem, then you have ZERO credibility with me when it comes to discussion and debate. It proves nothing, other than illustrating that I believe all participating architects deserve the benefit of the doubt for sharing their ideas, beliefs, likes and dislikes with us on here. You obviously aren't any sort of scientist, as you apparently have no idea what constitutes objective evidence.

And saying that respect is earned only further proves my point. Tom and Tiger have both been on this site, sharing their thoughts about all manner of golf courses, more than long enough to have earned everyone's respect, save an apparently jealous few such as yourself.

« **Reply #20 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:16:31 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on May 29, 2006, 03:00:21 PM

Kevin, what you are missing, whilst engulfed in cynicism, is that there are many of us on here who want to hear the exchange between Tom and Tiger. We have been on the site for 5, 6, 7 years now, and have developed many friendships. We understand the exchanges. I haven't met Tom or Tiger, but I am very familiar with both from posts on here, and welcome the opportunity to eavesdrop on their debate.

And if you think my defending Tom is evidence of the problem, then you have ZERO credibility with me when it comes to discussion and debate. It proves nothing, other than illustrating that I believe all participating architects deserve the benefit of the doubt for sharing their ideas, beliefs, likes and dislikes with us on here. You obviously aren't any sort of scientist, as you apparently have no idea what constitutes objective evidence.

And saying that respect is earned only further proves my point. Tom and Tiger have both been on this site, sharing their thoughts about all manner of golf courses, more than long enough to have earned everyone's respect, save an apparently jealous few such as yourself.

You are brainwashed.

When I had a disagreement with Matt Ward at least we spoke architecture. Where in here is there ANY insight into Ballyneal except that Bernhardt is wrong. Lets hear some details Tom. Why is he wrong? Document your thoughts with some photos you say you have but we might misinterpret

The only "exchange" in this thread is non-architecture related and therefore worthless waste of bandwith (including my posts to Doak). Tom, why did you start this thread?

« **Reply #21 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:23:20 PM »

Kevin, it is you who is brainwashed. I have repeatedly said I feel participating architects deserve the benefit of the doubt. Tiger has even posted TWICE now that he took Tom's comments in the spirit intended.

Maybe Tom's point was to draw Tiger out into further expressing his point, maybe it was simply one friend jabbing another. YOU are the only one making it out into a conspiracy of Tom's marketing efforts. The rest of us on here know the real story.

Perhaps you could post on the Who Are You Guys thread so we could learn more about you. Here it is:

Who are you guys...really?

(You could also use a refresher or two on logic and debate, but that's another story.)

« **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:37:03 PM »

Here are the offending posts.

Jim Franklin's post, "Sand Hills: 50 words or less", 9/28/05

"Adam I respect Tom's work as much as any on here but there is no guarantee that he will be able to make Ballyneal an equal much less better course. I do not think he will be able too but time will tell."

Adam Clayman's post "Recent Ballyneal Pix", 9/20/05:

"Adam, those are great pictures. They actually look better than the site does. I did not find the same drama at Ballyneal that the Sand Hills area has."

We have high hopes for Ballyneal, and any time someone makes comparisons with Sand Hills, it's a high compliment. They are quite different, even though they can be grouped together as "sand hills" courses.

« **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:50:29 PM »

John, that is alot of justice for a man to have to read his post again. I am pleased my memory is in line with what I did say. Barney Frank aka Jaka B enjoys all this more than I do though.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:55:34 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on May 29, 2006, 03:23:20 PM

Kevin, it is you who is brainwashed. I have repeatedly said I feel participating architects deserve the benefit of the doubt. Tiger has even posted TWICE now that he took Tom's comments in the spirit intended.

Maybe Tom's point was to draw Tiger out into further expressing his point, maybe it was simply one friend jabbing another. YOU are the only one making it out into a conspiracy of Tom's marketing efforts. The rest of us on here know the real story.

Perhaps you could post on the Who Are You Guys thread so we could learn more about you. Here it is:

Who are you guys...really?

(You could also use a refresher or two on logic and debate, but that's another story.)

George

You are as hopeless in your own way as Matt Ward is in his. I hope you receive the invite to play for your suck-up efforts. I will see it if I please via tournaments or member-guest events. If you can't read the initial post here and see it for what was really intended then you need some reading comprehension courses.

News:

Tom_Doak

ed_getka

Tim Bert

Mark_F

John Kirk

Tiger_Bernhardt

Mike_Cirba

Tiger_Bernhardt

Mike_Cirba

Kevin Edwards

George Pazin

Tiger_Bernhardt

Jim Nugent

Tim Pitner

rgkeller

Kevin Edwards

Ryan Farrow

Kevin Edwards

Tiger_Bernhardt

George Pazin

Kevin Edwards

George Pazin

John Kirk

Tiger_Bernhardt

Kevin Edwards