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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Subair System
« on: May 26, 2006, 09:41:53 AM »
My home club, Admirals Cove is doing a complete renovation and they are considering using the Subair System.

Can anyone experienced with it tell us the pro and cons, as yet I haven't heard any cons?

Is it as good as it is cracked up to be?

Thanks
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Subair System
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2006, 09:46:55 AM »
Cary,

How many clubs have implemented the system in South Florida ?
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A_Clay_Man

Re:Subair System
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 10:03:56 AM »
Cary, Every course here uses the round sand as a subair system.

How much is this costing each memeber?
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Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 10:15:56 AM »
Cary,

Does the course have a lot of problems with their greens? When I played there in late Janruary the greens were in great shape.

ps.  is it getting hot yet?

Jason
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You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 10:17:41 AM »
Cary,

 The only downside of these systems is cost and occasional maintenence. I supervised the installation of several last year and they've made an infinite difference in a greens ability to soak up mositure and recover to fast and firm conditions quickly.

   Depending on the club's ability to spend as little time as possible locating each green's exisiting drainage "plumbing" and excavate that area successfully, such results will determine the ultimate cost and inconvenience to the membership.

   Adam,

   Subair systems are often the only way, shy of complete reconstruction, to approach a well-draining sand-based green. Back East, the effects of high humidity and frequent precipitiation on turf are near impossible to control when such conditions prevail.

I believe the costs per green can run from $10k to $25k depending on exisiting drainage and location work.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

A_Clay_Man

Re:Subair System
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2006, 10:36:49 AM »
Thanks for that Steve.

I'm curious if greens committees would still use this expensive systems on aerial approach designed greens?

How much is the architect responsible for designing-out the conditions that require this system ?
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S. Huffstutler

Re:Subair System
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 11:04:05 AM »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2006, 11:16:45 AM »
Adam,

   Actually, that's where the use/installation of sub-airs is more preferable. Greens committees are seduced by the fact that they can maintain fast surfaces (and regulate that speed and receptivity) What is interesting is the dichotomy that occurs when the connecting collar to the fairway stays wet and soft and ground game shots die prematurely.

   As most places don't manicure to the degree of an ANGC, they are left with greens that now feel like they are brand new but the approach areas play very differently. As usual, the greens committees take more time and $$ to address this inquality only if the committee has enough purists who understand the ground game. In the Northeast parkland course culture that is rare and on the verge of extinction,
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 11:17:55 AM »
Pat:

TPC Sawgrass is installing it.
Sage Valley in SC
Augusta
Ocean Forest is installing it
Frederica has it
I think Jupiter Hills is installing it.
I don't know the other Florida Courses

Jason:

We have not had a problem with our greens, but since we're going to spend $7 million or so renovating the course, why not add the Subair system if it can make them better. I can't see how water sitting on the surface while the grass bakes can help the quality of the grass.
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Larry_Rodgers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2006, 11:28:15 AM »
Not only will the subair system remove water from the soil profile, there is a switch that will assist in adding air into the profile. There is much positive research at UC Davis on injecting air into the soil profile of crops. The initial tests are indicating a 25% increase in the tomato plots.

The largest cost of the subair system is getting power to the system if the unit selected is permanent. It is not unusual to have the same cost of the air systems double when the power wiring is included in the costs.
 
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Subair System
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2006, 11:47:55 AM »
Larry,
Sounds as if I should reinstate my contractors license to help these people get power to each of their 18 greens!
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Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2006, 11:53:07 AM »
The Concession in Bradenton has a subair system for all greens
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2006, 12:03:05 PM »
Arnold Palmer told the GD crowd that he wanted to place the sub air systems in all greens at Pebble Beach.  As a result they could keep the water content to their acceptable levels and keep the poa out of the greens.
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Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2006, 04:02:21 PM »
Quote from: cary lichtenstein on May 26, 2006, 09:41:53 AM
My home club, Admirals Cove is doing a complete renovation and they are considering using the Subair System.

Can anyone experienced with it tell us the pro and cons, as yet I haven't heard any cons?

Is it as good as it is cracked up to be?

Thanks

Cary:
This is interesting.  I ndeed to do some serious research into this.
Best
Dave
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Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2006, 11:12:30 PM »
One of the benefits to Subair systems is supposed to be temperature control, by putting air cooler (or warmer I suppose during early/late season?) than the ambient air through the tubing to cool the soil and reduce stress, is that correct?

If so, it seems to me like a MUCH better way to do it would be to run 1" flexible PEX tubing under the greens just like how radiant floor heat works.  Just keep a slow constant circulation of irrigation water through those pipes and on through the rest of the system and you'd get far better cooling than you could ever hope to do with air, which is a terrible conductor of heat.
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Donnie Beck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2006, 10:19:55 AM »
Doug,
It is only a matter of time until you have a leak... What then?
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Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subair System
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2006, 01:50:47 AM »
The PEX piping for in-floor radiant systems is warrantied for 50 years, and they use PVC pipes for underground muni water runs in most locales these days.  So I don't think leaks are something you need to worry about, at least in the lifetime of the architect and initial super ;)
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My hovercraft is full of eels.
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