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Steve_Roths

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St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« on: May 20, 2006, 06:21:09 PM »
I am supposed to be playing this course in St. Louis in the coming weeks and was curious as to anyone's thoughts.  I believe it is a Hurzdan Fry course that is highly ranked in the State Rankings of Missouri.

Thanks.

Jeff_Stettner

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2006, 11:54:52 PM »
Steve,
Of the two courses at St. Alban's, Tavern Creek is the lesser track. It traverses steep terrain with an awkward routing and some really repetitive looks on the par 5's and 4's. Walking is not an option. There has been some recent bunker work that should improve the course as many had lost their original shape. It has been over a year since I have played there and I cannot speak to the conditions. I was quite surprised that the course faired as well with GD as it did; the Weiskopf and Morrish track is actually quite good and if given the choice, I would play 8 out of 10 rounds on there at St. Albans.
Let me know if you want suggestions on options to play elsewhere or are looking for a game. I will be curious to hear your thoughts.    

Jim Nugent

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2006, 03:34:18 AM »
Jeff, do you have, or know where I can find, pictures/descriptions of the renovations to the Forest Park 18 hole course?  I've heard some about what they did, and would love to see photos and/or detailed explanations of the changes.  

Jeff_Stettner

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2006, 09:48:45 AM »
Jim,
I moved to St. Louis after the renovation was finished, so I have only played the course in its current state. I have heard about the older course a little bit, and know that the old monster par 5 is now two holes. Other than that, I am not sure how much has changed.
Despite barely topping 6000 yards, the new track (27 holes) is actually really fun, even for longer hitters (there are reachable par 4's and shorter 5's). Some of the greens are a hoot... one is a rectangle while another is a biarritz (a feature that is blind off the tee). Some of the doglegs are really sharp and I have found myself shaping the ball at FP more than at many highly regarded courses. While rather uninspired in design appearance, the bunkers work well at directing play. On a couple of holes, the bunkers actually cut into the fairways at angles forcing the golfer to think about distance vs. line of attack.
The best part of the place is the price (and the fact that you are playing in a park with gorgeous views all around)... (some of the jogging eye candy doesn't hurt). The last time I played there was in march and my walking green fee was $17. Conditions are always respectable, a change from the old course from what I have heard. Next time I am there I will snap some photos.
I hope that helps.

Steve Pozaric

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2006, 05:02:29 PM »
Jeff, do you have, or know where I can find, pictures/descriptions of the renovations to the Forest Park 18 hole course?  I've heard some about what they did, and would love to see photos and/or detailed explanations of the changes.  
The most significant changes to the 18 are that the old 1-4 (4 being the Art Hill Par 5) replaced by new holes, the monster par 5 along Skinker has been divided into 2 holes and the really good par 3 after the Skinker par 5 is now a shortish Par 4.  They added a couple of odd bunker and moved a cart part here and there, but most of the holes have not been changed on the old 18.  With that said, the old "flat 9" is now completely gone and replaced with some really good holes.  Even, as Jeff said, if it is somewhat short.  

I have looked for pics and other info on the web in the past, but have not had much luck.

Steve Pozaric

Jim Nugent

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2006, 01:34:09 AM »
I used to like 1 through 4 a lot.  Where are the holes that took their place?  Where the old nine-hole course used to be?  Is number 5 now the same as it was before -- a par 5 that winds its way to the right, uphill to the green?

Kind of unusual, the old layout had two par 3's in a row, followed by two par 5's in a row.  

Steve Pozaric

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2006, 09:05:29 AM »
No. 5 is still the same but now it is the first hole on that nine.  The new holes are where the old flat 9 used to be.
Steve Pozaric

Jim Nugent

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2006, 09:51:49 AM »
No. 5 is still the same but now it is the first hole on that nine.  The new holes are where the old flat 9 used to be.

Steve, do they run the course up through the old number 17 -- the short par 3 over the lagoon -- and then close things up with new holes?  Also, have they added bunkering, changed the shapes anywhere?  I've heard about the Biarritz hole, which the old course did not have, so I'm thinking they put in some new features on the old holes.  

Brian Noser

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2006, 09:52:51 AM »
I have played the old FP once or twice, I am playing 9 holes on the new course tomorrow. I will give a description of the holes then.  after driving by the course and that area of the park looks really different, in a good way.It may become my home course on the weekends now after seeing it. the length may be an issue though. The maint was not very good at the old course, the new one looks very nice. It is really close to my work and you can't beat 12 bucks to play nine holes after work.

Brian Noser

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2006, 10:03:08 AM »
Jim,

From what I saw driving by the hole over the lagoon that you are talking about is no longer there. It has been a complete overhaul of the course and park for that matter. They redid the basin that you teed off over.

if you go to google maps and type in forest park you can see it looks like they have taken it while under construction.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 10:06:25 AM by Brian Noser »

Jim Nugent

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2006, 11:59:31 AM »
Google maps shows the old course, plus a lot of construction going on where the old nine-hole course was.  Has to be several years old.  Wonder when Google will update?

The lagoon was home to a whole series of mystical/mythical looking buildings that were part of the 1904 St. Louis World Fair.  I've seen pictures of those buildings.  The scenes reminded me of a Maxfield Parrish painting.  Sorry to hear several of the holes there are NLE.  

Steve Pozaric

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2006, 05:32:37 PM »
Old 17 is gone, but the lagoon has been much improved and looks so much nicer than it used to.

The Biarritz was one of the old holes.  Here is the link:

http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.639471,-90.301378&spn=0.003008,0.004989&t=k&om=1

I know there is a way to post a picture rather than a link, but can't remember how, sorry.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 12:11:55 AM by Steve Pozaric »
Steve Pozaric

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2006, 01:49:40 AM »
I have played Forest Park since 1978, under a variety of conditions and have also played all three new nines.

The original nine-hole course was a very easy and completely flat.  It was a favorite for beginners and for seniors wanting to still play and walk.  The original 18 hosted a USGA Publinks in the late 1920's.

Forest Park was the sight of the 1904 World Fair and is actually bigger in acreage than New York's Central Park.  As part of the centennial of the 1904 World Fair, St. Louis initiated a number of local projects aimed at improving the quality of life in the city over the long term.  One part of this was the restoration of Forest Park.  This included upgrading the roadways, paths, lighting, benches and facilities.  It also included the connecting of all of the ponds and lagoons and the complete refurbishment of the Grand Basin below the Art Museum.

With this some changes were needed to the golf course as the 4th hole's fairway was the giant hill (Art Hill) which fell from the steps of the Art Museum to the Grand Basin and the 17 hole was a par-3 requiring the tee shot to pass over the Grand Basin.  Since the goal was to make the Grand Basin more usable for all park visitors, including paddle boats, strolls around the basin and picnics, the golf course was seen as an impediment to this goal.  The golf course was expected to adjust.

Personally, I always preferred holes 5 through 16 and I also agreed with the belief that the grassy slope between the Grand Basin and the Art Museum should not be restricted to golf use.  Since a fairway is either for golf only or not for golf at all, then I agreed with the golf course leaving this spot.  Other golfers disagreed.

The result was the complete redesign of all 27 holes by Hale Irwin (or his company).  First the easy nine was 100% redesigned, including creating a new clubhouse at the opposite end of the nine-holer.  This nine is still flat and short, but is now much more interesting with some well place bunkers.

For the 18-holer:
Holes 2, 3, 4 and 17 were eliminated;
holes 1 and 18 were redesigned so that the golfer is now playing in the opposite direction where each hole was located;
#9 was changed from a very long par five to a par-4 and a par-3; and
#10 was changed from a blind long par-3 to a short (but fun) par-4.

This was the par sequence of the old 18:
4, 3, 3, 5, 5, 3, 4, 4, 5,
3, 5, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 4
(although #2 was sometimes played as a drivable par-4).

In my opinion:
#1 was a fine opening hole;
#2 could be fun, but due to many surrounding trees was always in awful shape including NO grass on the tees;
#3 was a medium length par-3 but with the green elevated about 30-40 feet and thus blind;
#4 was only fun because the tee was elevated, the fairway sloped (thus giving more distance) & the fairway was about 100 yards wide; followed by a blind green over another hill in a little swale, although with a fun green that Perry Maxwell would have loved.

This combination resulted in the first four holes normally (even when teeing off early on Saturday morning) taking over 1 hour to play and with lots of lost balls for all types of golfers.

The other 2 new nines match with the old 18 as follows:
Old:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,  10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18
new:6,           1, 2,                                        3,  4,       7;
new:                    9. 1, 2/3, 4,  5,   6,   7,  8

Many local Forest Park golfers were upset about these changes.  Some were bothered by the changes to the easy nine.  Although this is still enjoyable for golfer's of lesser skills and is still easy to walk.
Many were bothered about the loss of the 4th (Art Hill).  I was not as explained earlier.
Finally some was upset at the loss of the very long & famous 9th hole.

I do not know why the 9th was split into two although I can see that they needed an extra hole for the system of three nines to work where each nine begins and ends fairly near the new clubhouse.  Although actually the old nine required no strategy, it was just long with OB all the way down the left (this is OB is Skinker Blvd., the west boundary of the course and THE spot on the course to see very fit runners/bikers/roller bladers going by on the paths between the OB and the street.)

In addition to the old #9 only being long - just keep hitting the ball as far as possible until the green is reached - it was also better to be slightly right.  Although this brought OB into play, it also resulted in ball flying into the paths, the street, and the many churches across the street along the 9th.

Whereas, on the new par-4 (followed by a par-3), staying left is rewarded.

Finally, although the old 10th was a very challenging par-3 of just over 200 and with only the top 1/3 of the flagstick visible, the new short par-4 is a good example of a fun short par-4.

All of the other changes resulted in no layout changes.  However, every green was rebuilt, some with new green designs, and all of the tees and fairways were upgraded.

The new greens a great.  The old course did not have the biarritz now the rectangle green.  There are also some new false fronts.

Any one of the nines is enjoyable muni-golf.  The course is now in better shape and the current greens fee is very reasonable of $36 for 18 holes walking on a Saturday (2005).  And although there are a few hills on the old 18 portion, this is a very walkable course with each tee very close to the prior green.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jim Nugent

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2006, 02:45:59 AM »
Bill, thanks for the detailed explanation of the changes at Forest Park.  The old 9-hole course was a waste of time for anyone other than beginners, people who had trouble walking, and perhaps some seniors.  Good to hear it's now more interesting.

I'm a little confused about the routing of the 18 hole course.  Your table did not set down the way you intended -- I've had the same problem here.  I understand the course now starts with old number 5, followed by old number six.  Is the sequence like this:

5, 6, 15, 16, new, new, new, new, 9.5, 9.75, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 7, 8, new?

If so, I'm curious how you get from the 4th green (old number 16) to the 9th tee, when you are also using old numbers 1 and 18.  

Or is the sequence like this:  5 through 16 with old 9 split, then new holes on home?

Or something different?

Which green is the Biarritz -- old number 12?  Is there a Redan somewhere now too?  

If anyone is able to post pictures, I for one would love to see them.  



 

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2006, 09:05:54 AM »
Jim,

You are correct; my sequence description did not post correctly.  Here is how the new nines relate to the old 18:

Dogwood
new:   old:
1         5
2         6
3         15
4         16
5         new
6         1
7         18
8         new
9         new

Redbud
new:    old:
1         8
2         9
3         9
4         10
5         11
6         12
7         13
8         14
9         7

(Hawthorne is the name of the flat 9)

Dogwood starts at the old #5, goes to old #6 and then old #15 which parallels old #7.  After #4 (old #16), this nine is completed across the road on the portion of the course where the old #1 & #18 were located and on some of the grounds of the old flat-nine.  Part of the new flat nine comes from property from a reclaimed road which went through the north side of the park adjacent to the old flat nine.  This road was redundant since Forest Park Blvd. borders the north side of the park.

The new #5 of Redbud recreates the old #17 shot across the narrow part of the Grand Basin.  Then #6 plays north along the spot where the old #1 played south and #7 plays south about where the old #18 played north.  Finally, #9 of the Redbud is a 600 yard par-5 thus recreating the very long par-5 of the old #9.

The Dogwood nine follows the old #8 through #14 and then finishes on the old #7 (with the old #9 now being the new #2 & #3).

I think #6 on Redbud is the biarritz.  I do not recall a redan; however I have only played each nine one time.

When one considers that the redesign was extremely restricted with an already existing layout, a requirement to have three nines each starting and ending in close proximity to the clubhouse and on limited public funding, I think the redesign is a very successful result.  They took what was forced upon them and created new, more interesting greens, and some new strategy.  Also, the course can be played by a variety of skill levels but yet each nine can still be fun to any golfer.  Finally, although the price went from about $25 to $35 on weekends, this is still a very reasonable fee and the increased price comes with much better conditions.

Also, very importantly the completely renovated Grand Basin is fantastic.  Every time a have driven by this space has had a lot of activity, including boaters, people fishing, wedding parties stopping to have their photos taken with the basin, Art Hill & the museum as the backdrop, and other just enjoying the grounds of Art Hill..  So it is good to know that leaving the old #4 & #17 were not for nothing, but actually have resulted in more activity by all of the non-golfing park visitors.

If anyone wants to see a fantastic urban park renovation, visit Forest Park.  It still has all the charm from 50 or 70 years ago, but with upgraded facilities.

On another note Jim, any news per Normandie.  This is my favorite public course to play in St. Louis.  I would be very happy to see the rates increase $15 or $20 on this course if this money was put into improving the conditions of the golf course.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2006, 09:19:46 AM »
CORRECTIONS:

" The new #5 of DOGWOOD {not Redbud} recreates the old #17 shot across the narrow part of the Grand Basin.

...

The REDBUD {not Dogwood} nine follows the old #8 through #14 and then finishes on the old #7 (with the old #9 now being the new #2 & #3).

...
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jim Nugent

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2006, 09:36:27 AM »
Bill -- how is the new number 5 different from the old number 17?  Still a par 3 over the lagoon, right?  

I'm surprised that one of the nines starts on old number 8.  The tee on that hole was on top of a hill.  It used to be pretty far removed from everything.  Certainly not close to the tee on old number 5, which starts the other nine.  How do you get there from the clubhouse, or the previous hole?  

18 used to be a real weak hole.  They redesigned old number 15, sometime back in the 1970's I think.  Before that it was a straightaway downhill 255 yard par 4, whose green was right next to the number 5 tee.  

Are the old NLE greens grown over now?  

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2006, 05:04:34 PM »
Jim,

The new #5 on the Dogwood nine which recreates the old #17 short par-3 over the Grand Basin, is located on the other side of the road with the lagoon between the tee and the green being a new lagoon created for the new holes.  Old #16 (now #4 on Dogwood) is still at the same location with hust a new green.  However, instead of then stepping off the right side of the green and going a couple of steps to the old #17 tee, the routing now requires the golfer to step off the left side of what is now #4, cross the road (which runs parallel to the north side of #4) and then continue the remaining of the Dogwood nine on the north side of the road.  This was all ground which which was previously devoted to just #1 & 18 of the old 18-holes and the flat-nine.  But the Grand Basin is only on the south side of the road.

As far as I am aware, none of the old greens are in existence.  That is interesting about the old changes to #15, for I always though #15 was a good hole.  I can see how the old design would have been very boring.  The current routing of old #15 (now #3 - Dogwood) is a nice little hole which tempts one to consider driver, but with the small green and the way it is perched on the hillside, the lay-up is often the smarter shot.  Although even then, the wedge approach shot to the elevated little green can still be quite a challange.

As per the nines, the new clubhouse is only about 150-200 yards from old #5 tee on the old 18-hole layout.  Old #15 parallels old #5 and old #7 parallels old #15.  So that if one just walks to old #5 tee, it is then only about another 100-125 yards to the old #8 tee.

Here is a link to globeXplorer.  Their aerial shows the current course design.  (It appears #9 on Redbud is the rectangle green.)
http://imageatlas.globexplorer.com/ImageAtlas/view.do

By the way Jim, it appears you have not seen the new course.  Are you no longer in St. Louis?  Are you familiar with any other NLE courses in St. Louis?  I used to play Bahnfyre & Crystal Lake.  I also miss Tower Tee Driving range (still in existence).  I have not found a driving range with that much character anywhere around Springfield, MA.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jeff_Stettner

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2006, 05:16:04 PM »
Bill,
The future of Normandie is very much TBD. We will see what happens with the golf course.
For an intersting read, check out this month's St. Louis Magazine (a publication that I normally avoid). There is a very interesting article on the current status of the area's private clubs. I know a few folks that have suggested that some courses might end up merging...

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2006, 05:49:25 PM »
While I never played the origional layout, I did play 18 holes at Forest Park about a month ago...and had a blast. I thought the course was really interesting and fun. While I'm from Chicago origionally, my golfing girlfriend is from St. Louis and has introduced me to some great golf courses down there...St. L really is a bit of a sleeper town for golf.
H.P.S.

Jim Nugent

Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2006, 05:58:50 AM »
Bill, I haven't spent much time there for a long time.  Have not seen the new layout.  Played Crystal Lake a few times -- we had a high school tournament there way back when.  

Don't know if you know this, but up to the mid 1960's or so, there was another starting hole on the old 18 hole course.  A bit further east.  A stream cut diagonally across the fairway from the left, then ran along the right side of the hole all the way to the green.  I was pretty young then, but I'm pretty sure you teed off with an iron.  

Thanks for that satellite view.  I see real clearly what they did.  Kind of interesting, recreating the old 17th as number 5, across the road.  Does it play the same?  

Brian Noser

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2006, 09:35:02 AM »
I believe the Birritz green was original and it is number 6 on the redbud also the rectangle green is number 7 on that same course. There are many changes to the course. it is a fun little course to play it is now our regular spot after work as I said before. the changes are for the better the course in in good shape and it is fun to play even if it is relativly short.
I particuly like number 5 on the old flat nine. par 5 500 yards at the green there is a large bunker in front left of the green it looks to be right next to it but it is actually about 40 yards short.
It is a fun course i believe that some here would like it and others not but that is with any course.

Steve Pozaric

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2006, 09:42:33 AM »
I am playing in an outing at FoPo this Saturday and will try to remember my camera.  I am sure I will have plenty of time for pictures.
Steve Pozaric

Brian Noser

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Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2006, 10:15:05 AM »
Steve it will be slow unless you are the really early group. do you know what nines you are playing yet?

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:St. Albans Tavern Creek STL
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2006, 10:22:29 AM »
I believe we are playing Dogwood and Redbud.  It is in the afternoon and it is a scramble "tournament" for a school.  I don't think we will be breaking any speed records.
Steve Pozaric

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