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Kyle Harris

Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« on: May 18, 2006, 06:40:30 PM »
Why don't we see more not-circular or square green shapes?

Naturally, I'm not speaking of hard edged pentagons on which a bunch of Generals would feel at home, but greens that feature many flatter edges and sides that allow for different angles of approach or integration of slopes.

I've noticed many Flynn courses divert away from the four sided green (Wayne, could you post an image of Flynn's Plan for Rolling Green's 5th Green if you have the chance?) but I haven't really seen a 4+ sided green employed on many other courses.
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Dan Herrmann

Re:Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2006, 06:56:49 AM »
Nicklaus' Glen Abbey #17 used to have an inverted U shaped green with a bunker in the middle of the "U".  It's since been redone, though.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 06:57:00 AM by Dan Herrmann »
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TEPaul

Re:Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2006, 07:09:25 AM »
Kyle:

The basically square green shape was somewhat of an architectural standard of early golf course architecture. It was prevalent in the end of the 19th century and into the teens and then most all golf course architecture became more "artistic" generally and specifically in green shapes.

Why did that happen? In my opinion, it was simply the expected or natural evolution of the entire art of golf course architecture and probably the influence on golf course architecture of some of the principles of landscape architecture (naturalism) as much as anything else.
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Tom Roewer

Re:Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2006, 07:15:31 AM »
Raynor employed squared or rectangular shapes on many greens or at least parts of greens.  examples: # 6 and # 15 @ Chicago and #2 @ Mountain Lake.  I personally really enjoy the look.
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wsmorrison

Re:Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2006, 07:40:09 AM »
Here's a bunch of Flynn greens that show various styles.  I tried to post those that had "sides," typically pentagonal but he also used freeform shapes with lobes that provide the same sort of dictates on approaches, yet even more so.  

Rolling Green GC 5th (terrific interplay of slopes that you have to experience first hand)



Merion GC 1st



Shinnecock Hills GC 11th



Lehigh CC 10th



Indian Creek CC 7th



Philadelphia CC 1st (an example of free form with lobes)

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wsmorrison

Re:Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2006, 07:48:11 AM »
I do not like square greens, rectangular bunkers or any primary geometric shapes on a golf course.  They look so man-made that it is more of an homage to man than to nature.  Golf should bring us back to nature and not remind us of the man-made world.  This to me is one of the great failings of Raynor and Banks.  It is a style that Ross evolved out of and for good reason in my mind.

Look at the Flynn greens and imagine these shapes being tied naturally to the surrounds.  It is more artistic and more appealing.

"If I remember the sunflower forest it is because from its hidden reaches man arose.  The green world is his sacred center.  In moments of sanity he must still seek refuge there."

--Loren Eisley, 1970
Quoted in our Flynn book

Horseshoes in greens and the geometric shapes on Raynor and Banks courses are fun to play and challenging but often lack real aesthetic appeal according to my taste.  There are thankfully some exceptions such as Fishers Island, some at Fox Chapel and at Yale.  Macdonald seemed to not get so close to the overly geometric at NGLA and The Creek, a bit less so at St. Louis CC and Piping Rock.  
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Kyle Harris

Re:Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2006, 12:09:41 PM »
Wayne,

Thank you very much! RG's 5th was my primary motivation for this thread and I started to think of it while changing the tee blocks on HVCC's 3rd. Both feature a rounded multi-sided shape that fits into the hillside (or hilltop in RG5's case).
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Dan Herrmann

Re:Pentagons through Nonagons - Odd green shapes
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2006, 01:10:26 PM »
Quote from: Wayne Morrison on May 19, 2006, 07:48:11 AM
I do not like square greens, rectangular bunkers or any primary geometric shapes on a golf course.  They look so man-made that it is more of an homage to man than to nature.  Golf should bring us back to nature and not remind us of the man-made world.  This to me is one of the great failings of Raynor and Banks.  It is a style that Ross evolved out of and for good reason in my mind.


In fact, it's the rectangular green "influence" that was my primary dislike of Weed's Glen Mills in Pennsylvania.  In fact, the whole course just seemed manufactured.

I'm more than willing to give them a pass, though, because of the great work they do with the kids up at the Glen Mills school.

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