Pas Palum or what

« **on:** May 11, 2006, 09:51:42 AM »

To the Treehouse:

Does anyone have any experience with Pas Palum Grass on the golf course?

Is this the best grass to use in South Florida climates?

How does it compare to 419?

If recommending a grass for a South Florida course what would be the best grass to recommend for playability?

Should the same grass be used on Tees, Fairways and Greens?

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks

Dave

« **Reply #1 on:** May 11, 2006, 01:28:36 PM »

Dave

I had the opportunity to play Tuscany Reserve in Naples in February. The course was a collaboration between Pete Dye and Greg Norman. Not only were the tees, greens, fairways, and roughs all paspalum, but all of the grass in the entire community was paspalum. It provided excellent playing surfaces throughout the golf course. I guess only time will tell whether it is the "Turfgrass of the Future"

« **Reply #2 on:** May 11, 2006, 01:33:33 PM »

Quote from: BillV aka redanman® on May 11, 2006, 10:48:09 AM

Paspalum vaginatum scientific

Ok, maybe it's just me... but doesn't that sound more like something Bob Crosby was doing after lifeguard duty at some golf course long ago?

« **Reply #3 on:** May 11, 2006, 06:13:56 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Miller on May 11, 2006, 09:51:42 AM

Does anyone have any experience with Pas Palum Grass on the golf course?

Dave, I believe Jupiter Hills, the Hills Course is Paspalum.[/color]

Is this the best grass to use in South Florida climates?
It's awfully tight.
I would think that better players would like it, I'm not so sure about the higher handicaps[/color]

How does it compare to 419?

Tighter lies.[/color]

If recommending a grass for a South Florida course what would be the best grass to recommend for playability?

Pine Tree experimented with a variety of grasses, you may want to consult with their super.

Also, I'd recommend consulting with the Super at Jupiter Hills and Boca Rio.

A few years ago, someone involved in golf stated that: "If grasses were drugs they'd never be allowed out of the lab"

I think you have to be careful because there's not an extensive data base, hence, I'd opt for the more conservative position, probably 419 on the fairways.[/color]

Should the same grass be used on Tees, Fairways and Greens?

NO.

There are a number of good grasses for tees and greens that seem to be proven commodities in South Florida.[/color]

Any ideas or suggestions?

« **Reply #4 on:** May 11, 2006, 06:40:42 PM »

I thought the major advantage to Paspalum was that it could be completely imersed in salt water with no harm; it can actually be irrigated with a high salt content also. Seems ideal for places where the water quality is poor or the risk of salt water flooding is a real possibility.

« **Reply #5 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:01:22 PM »

The May River Club at Palmetto Bluff (Nicklaus Course) has paspalum tees and fairways.

The entire Ocean Point course at Fripp Island Resort was recently converted to paspalum from tee to green.

« **Reply #6 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:21:04 PM »

I belong to a club that has Paspallum Dwarf grass throughout. This is the third of four strains of Paspallum to date. It is a terrific Florida fairway grass, and it wonderful for tee boxes as well. It gives tight fairway lies, but the ball sits up on the carpet so high handicappers feel they can sweep their fairway woods. For the esthetically conscious, it stripes out well for a nice visual effect not found with 419 bermuda grass. If the course is designed to bounce the ball on to the greens, it is far too sticky to achieve that.

Jupiter Hills uses it only on its tee boxes.

As a putting surface, the dwarf version, and now apparently the Supreme strain used at Kiawah Ocean has had mixed reviews. It must be cut tight on greens, or else the ball rolls with a "shimmey". (some of you may remember the shimmey from the 60's!

) As a grass from the rough, it tends to grow clumpy, is very tight, so the ball doesn't tend to sink down to the bottom like 419 bermuda does, but can't be grown to very high heights without becoming unplayable. Therefore if high rough is a club's goal, it would not be a good grass choice there. If other grasses are used on the greens, there can be an intrusion of the paspallum, and aggressive edging is needed.

Dave,
Another grass to look into for greens is the Mini Verde. It has been used at Eagle Creek in Orlando, and plays very well! It is what will be used at Sawgrass on the redo this summer.

« **Reply #7 on:** May 11, 2006, 08:39:57 PM »

Dave Miller,

Mini Verde is one of the four grasses that Pine Tree experimented with.

Call the Super.

« **Reply #8 on:** May 11, 2006, 09:23:47 PM »

Hello Dave!
I am superintendent at Timuquana CC in Jacksonville. We have planted Mini-Verde and Tifeagle side by side on a practice green. They both are great grasses. I like Mini Verde so far. I planted the original plot of Mini Verde at TPC at Sawgrass when I was an assistant super on the Stadium. It performed much better than the other grasses we looked at. We still have a coyuple years at Timuquana before we start any type of renovation of the golf course. Most golf courses in the North Florida area that renovated went Tifeagle and there have been mixed feelings. We also have tried some paspalum in areas and am very impressed with it. If water quality is an issue than paspalum is definetly a grass to look at. Many projects with water quality issues have gone this way and are successful. I guess Jacaranda just put it in paspalum on fairways and tees in the renovation by Bobby Weed. Boca West just renovated a course and went with paspalum everywhere but on the greens(Tifeagle). Site specific grass. It's not the perfect grass but it has it's purpose in the industry. Also Ronnie Duncan who originally breeded the paspalums will answer questions. I think he is consulting with the grass and not working with the U of Georgia anymore. Good Luck.

« **Reply #9 on:** May 11, 2006, 09:27:44 PM »

"Paspalum vaginatum"

Vostinak--don't be gross.

Dave:

Call up Gulf Stream G.C. in Delray and ask them how their paspalum has worked out. They started using it on select low-lying fairways about 5-6 years ago. When I first saw it on the 15th it looked good to me.

« **Reply #10 on:** May 11, 2006, 10:07:24 PM »

Pat,

My recollection is that Pine Tree used Mini Verde only on tee boxes several years ago. They didn't use it on greens.

« **Reply #11 on:** May 12, 2006, 04:16:31 PM »

Quote from: Chris Neff on May 11, 2006, 09:23:47 PM

Hello Dave!
I am superintendent at Timuquana CC in Jacksonville. We have planted Mini-Verde and Tifeagle side by side on a practice green. They both are great grasses. I like Mini Verde so far. I planted the original plot of Mini Verde at TPC at Sawgrass when I was an assistant super on the Stadium. It performed much better than the other grasses we looked at. We still have a coyuple years at Timuquana before we start any type of renovation of the golf course. Most golf courses in the North Florida area that renovated went Tifeagle and there have been mixed feelings. We also have tried some paspalum in areas and am very impressed with it. If water quality is an issue than paspalum is definetly a grass to look at. Many projects with water quality issues have gone this way and are successful. I guess Jacaranda just put it in paspalum on fairways and tees in the renovation by Bobby Weed. Boca West just renovated a course and went with paspalum everywhere but on the greens(Tifeagle). Site specific grass. It's not the perfect grass but it has it's purpose in the industry. Also Ronnie Duncan who originally breeded the paspalums will answer questions. I think he is consulting with the grass and not working with the U of Georgia anymore. Good Luck.

Chris:
Thanks for the information. By the way Dan Malizia is the Head Pro at my Club in Boston. Charles River CC.
Best
Dave

« **Reply #12 on:** May 12, 2006, 04:19:27 PM »

To the Treehouse:
Thanks for the information on Paspalum.
Does anyone know how it compares with Tifsport?
Would Tifsport be a better option in South Florida.
Fairways and Greens,
Dave

« **Reply #13 on:** May 12, 2006, 04:40:57 PM »

Hey Dave!
Tell Dan I said hi! I just talked to him about a month a ago. Also tell Terry his assistant I said hi as well. Another golf course to look at and talk to is Old XCollier in Naples. The super is Tim Hiers and is one of the best with paspalum. I think they just switched paspalum's on their greens to a newer variety.

Chris Neff

« **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2006, 04:57:09 PM »

Dave:

Bette and I have played 8 or 9 courses now with Paspallum and with the exception of May River, we were disappointed as follows:

1. The tees and fairways on some are spongy

2. The roughs are uneven, clumpy and sticky. The ball tends to fall to the bottom of the C and makes chipping difficult unless you pick the club straight up. Double chipping is common.

3. On the greens, the balls wavers from side to side.

4. There is a metal band between the paspallum and the green surface.

5. It takes the ground game out of play as it is too tick a blade.

6. I like it on tees, and I like the dark emerald green color.

I would not be in favor of using this grass unless the operating budget was very high.

« **Reply #15 on:** May 12, 2006, 05:05:06 PM »

Quote from: cary lichtenstein on May 12, 2006, 04:57:09 PM

Dave:

Bette and I have played 8 or 9 courses now with Paspallum and with the exception of May River, we were disappointed as follows:

1. The tees and fairways on some are spongy

2. The roughs are uneven, clumpy and sticky. The ball tends to fall to the bottom of the C and makes chipping difficult unless you pick the club straight up. Double chipping is common.

3. On the greens, the balls wavers from side to side.

4. There is a metal band between the paspallum and the green surface.

5. It takes the ground game out of play as it is too tick a blade.

6. I like it on tees, and I like the dark emerald green color.

I would not be in favor of using this grass unless the operating budget was very high.

Cary:
Thanks.
Dave

« **Reply #16 on:** May 12, 2006, 07:17:13 PM »

Quote from: Mitch Hantman on May 11, 2006, 07:21:04 PM

Another grass to look into for greens is the Mini Verde.

The Patriot at Grand Harbor in Greenwood, SC (a Paul Cowley design) has Mini Verde greens... with great success!!!

« **Reply #17 on:** May 12, 2006, 07:28:18 PM »

Dave Miller,

Reject all references to grasses in locations other than south Florida.

Admiral's Cove isn't in South Carolina, Georgia or North Carolina.

Coastal South Florida has an environment all its own.

Look to nearby clubs to get a handle on what works and what doesn't work in that environment.

« **Reply #18 on:** May 12, 2006, 07:33:44 PM »

Dave,

My suggestion would be to not reject any references you have been given here. Contact the supers at the courses mentioned and ask them for their recommendations. They are the folks who have done the research and lived with grass on their courses... whatever the environment. The more you learn... the more information you gather... the better an informed decision you will make.

Enjoy!

« **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2006, 07:54:38 PM »

Dave Miller,

Michael Whitaker is correct.

Contact supers in Alaska, Maine, Tennessee and all other locations outside of South Florida.

They'll be able to give you an intelligent analysis of the particular issues which affect grasses in South Florida.

Or, you can do as I suggested.

Contact the super at Jupiter Hills, Pine Tree and Boca Rio, courses not far removed from Admiral's Cove, which have experience with Paspalum and other grasses.

« **Reply #20 on:** May 12, 2006, 09:01:58 PM »

Mr. Mucci's snide comments aside... I doubt that anyone is growing paspalum in Alaska, Maine, or Tennessee. But, if they are I would sure as hell want to pick their brains because they could probably grow anything, anywhere!!!

« **Reply #21 on:** May 12, 2006, 09:53:15 PM »

Dave, how tight are our lies going to get ? I liked a soft lie. And why am I so old to like it ?

« **Reply #22 on:** May 13, 2006, 02:12:33 PM »

Quote from: Michael Whitaker on May 12, 2006, 07:33:44 PM

Dave,

My suggestion would be to not reject any references you have been given here. Contact the supers at the courses mentioned and ask them for their recommendations. They are the folks who have done the research and lived with grass on their courses... whatever the environment. The more you learn... the more information you gather... the better an informed decision you will make.

Enjoy!

Michael:
Talking with many who have used these grasses is a good idea and I agree the more information we have the better.

Patrick:
I agree we need to concentrate on South Florida and understand what happens to the grasses there but I see no harm in finding out what maintenance issues or other issues could arise by speaking with others in the south who work with these grasses.
We will be in touch with all the local courses. Pat who is the Super at Pine Tree.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

« **Reply #23 on:** May 13, 2006, 06:47:42 PM »

In January, I played Hammock Bay near Marco Island, a recently renovated course that had Paspallum greens and fairways (I think). I thought it was an excellent playing surface. I liked the greens much better than the usual bermuda strains found in the area. The fairways were nice as well. I was very impressed.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 13, 2006, 07:34:43 PM »

I am in the process of constructing and getting ready to grow-in a 40 acre Paspalum Supreme nursery for Corales Golf Club, a Tom Fazio Design as well as the process of supervising and later on growing in Corales Golf Club. I would contact Ronni Duncan at duncanturf@hotmail.com or John Holmes at Jennings Turf who grows it at the turf grass nursery at jaholmes@charter.net. They can answer all the questions you might have regarding paspalum.

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