So I have a question for everybody...and yes, I know...alot of the answer to this question depends on spreading and growing the game as widely as possible.

Tom Doak's thread on the fact that the economic margin of building CCs is rapidly dwindling...but leaving that out for now...

You know how lots of people say "there aren't any great sites left for golf?  I was looking at a map and saw tons of seaside territory that might just have sandy soil...or at least something offering god terrain for the game...

Lets see....France has alot of coastline, as do Italy, Germany, even Poland.  Heck, Norway, Sweden, Denmark have alot of coastline.

Then theirs OODLES of coastline in Japan and even China.  Australia?  Lots of coastline...

How much of the coastal areas of those countries are amenable to a golf course and why do we not see the Bandon/Barnbougle/Carne of any of these countries?  Why cant we get some more epic links?

Jay ,

Would you like to be the lead investor?

You know, not every seaside property should be turned into a golf course, especially if it's a private course or a terribly expensive course that few can enjoy.  I love the Bandons and Barnbougles (not that I've played Barnbougle) of the world, but not every region would be improved by a golf course.  

I don't want to be a downer, but I have to agree with Tim (not to put words in his mouth):

IMO, the vast majority of golfers will not have access to these great seaside places/courses; so, in order to really grow the game, maybe it's time to change our expectations.  

As I suggested on Tom D's thread about changing economics, it seems to me that these 'great pieces of land' will either be in already-established resort destinations, and therefore expensive, and therefore lending themselves only to exclusively private or high end public courses; or they'll be so far from major urban areas as to make them, for most people, a once in a life time destination (not a bad thing in and of itself, of course).  

I know it's asking a lot, but maybe the fine architects around might start trying to make the very best out of average pieces of land (even old landfills, etc) that might be closer to where most people live yet not be so expensive to purchase in the first place -- which might address the 'changing economics' from both sides of the fence, i.e. builders and players alike.

By the way, IMO Jim Thompson (from what I can tell from his website) has gotten it absolutely right with Angel's Crossing; a lovely, interesting and affordable course that's made the most of a decent if not spectacular piece of land.  

Sorry for the side-bar; I know this is not exactly what Jay was asking about.

Peter

Believe it or not there is some great links like terrain in Poland along the Baltic coast. I was there on business last year and spoted several areas that looked great for golf. But it is very possible that the economics just won't work.

I decided while I was there it would be great fun to golf in Poland; hey they have 26 courses. The closest course was in a tiny village of Postolowo, 35 miles from the major city of Gdansk. It was a pleasent modern course, about 5 years old, built by former GCA contributor Jeremy Turner. They charged me $100(US) for a round on the weekend; I was one of perhaps 10 people on the course. So what does this say? The developer had to build his course 35 miles from civilization in the middle of nowhere (land costs?). He still needed to charge $100 per round to make it work, which excludes most Polish nationals. The courses primary customers are Germans or Swedes who come for an extended holidays and enjoy "having the course to themselves". Aquiring prime coastal property would surely have made this project much more expensive; probably pricing them right out of the market.

Jay,

Perhaps this is a bias on my part, but I think golf fits better in certain countries than others.  To me, it fits best in Britain, Ireland and former British colonies (including Canada, Australia and New Zealand).  

I kind of agree with this sentiment.  Are there any top 100 courses outside of the English speaking world?

Without getting into the logistics of viability, travelling around many sections of the Australian coast, I doubt you would struggle to find any less than about 15,000 very appropriate and exciting large sites for high quality seaside golf courses.

Away from the ocean, I play a lot of golf outside the city, and most two hour drives pass at least a few and in some cases multitudes of great sites. If I had a stupid amount of money and selfishly built myself a dozen 18, 36 or 54 hole facilities dotted around my home state alone, using a worldwide pick of archies, I'd single handedly change the face of the Australian top 30-40 and to a lesser extent the world top 200 odd courses.

Jay:

In the past year I have talked to people who are actively looking at sandy coastal sites in South America [several places], Mexico, Ireland, Scotland, South Africa, and Western Australia.  I've also heard about projects under development in Iceland and Turkey and Chile.  As you say, there's plenty of coastline left.

The question is always whether someone will let you develop it.  It doesn't really matter what country:  the more remote it is, the fewer people there are to object, and the more likely you could get the permits.  Europe (even Ireland and the UK) is especially difficult now, because of the population density.  But some of these courses will happen over the next few years, and a lot of them will be terrific.

That's my niche and I love having it, but realistically, it is still only 1-2% of the total golf market.  Having the majority of architects build realistically priced courses on good but not spectacular sites closer to home is the real future of the game.

How much affordable golf is available along the Monterey coast?

Bob, It was my impression that the state of California parks dept, is also involved with a good chunk of the dunesland west of the fort and Marina.


It's a very interesting section of coast. One where I doubt any concensus could be had on any subject. Especially golf.  I knew two of the few who were rangers and the caretakers for all the beaches from Seaside to Moss Landing. If there was any incidient at all, it took a crew of cartographers to determine who had jurisdiction. Each jurisdiction regretting any verdict that made them the lucky ones who had to fill out all the paper work.

Jay, Your premise is something near and dear to me. It brought me to search the web when I found this website. It's that little saying about what everybody says. No good land left blah blah blah. I actually have never heard anyone say that, other than saying everybody says it. Have you?
I just thought it was an excuse for building mediocre golf, if'n  I ever heard anyone say it.

Adam,

I stand corrected, however, I believe that the two cities mentioned can and do have a most definte say in their ultimate usage.

Bob

Bob & Adam,

Could you actually build a course on the west side of RT 1 north of Montery & Seaside? Those dunes look dramamtic and they also look very un-stable. I would think their movement & erosion I would cause havoc w/ a course and it's maintenace proceedures over the years.

John

Phil Benedict
I kind of agree with this sentiment.  Are there any top 100 courses outside of the English speaking world?

Not as judged by those from the English speaking world.

Morfontaine outside of Paris has been in the top 50 for the last 20 years. Some great golf holes  + a clubhouse that features the worst pro shop and the best after-round lunch ever. Some great coastline in all parts of france for seaside courses.