WHY.

JakaB,

What about the greens at Sand Hills is unnatural ?

In the same vein, what about the greens at Friar's Head, Southern Hills and Hidden Creek are unnatural ?

Jeff, are you suggesting that green designs be dumbed down if the course is not intended to be Top 100?

In my opinion it works the other way -- the really interesting greens complexes and course designs overall lead to high ratings.  

I don't play enough of the moderns to really know that's the case, but I've played enough C&C and Doak courses to know the greens aren't flat by any means.

I've posted on this before, so I repeat, a 35 foot putt with 5 breaks is impossible to read, so I just take an overall look and hit it. Otherwise, I'd have to spend all day, calculating each break.

I can handle 2 breaks, that's enough and I give more credence to the 2nd one as the balls slows down.

Dye did this on the 14th hole of the River and I hated that green and he did it early on at the TPC but the pro's rebelled and he changed the contours.

Patrick,

I have only played Bandon Trails and Cuscowilla..

Barney is right that internal contouring, which is great, has some practical problems on any course not intended to be "top 100" in maintenance, cup areas, and speed of play.

It is no longer possible to build a course that is all things to all people.  Green contours and a lot of other things are dictated by the design program and intended clientele.

I hate to debate what is natural.  I guess Sand Hills comes as close as any in many cases.  

In other cases, the little "Internal Bumps" could be very unnatural on sites with long flowing contours.  Do we build steep greens on steep greensites, and flat greens on flat holes, or build the same contours (or perhaps more to compensate for the otherwise easier flat hole?) on each?

I can't even begin to explain the genius in the above post.  I am afraid we are beginning to see courses built for raters that suck for the members.  The formula to make one time visitors happy that are too cool for the golfing room is killing the everyday player who would love to grow old at a club.  Nobody eats pheasant and caviar everyday..or wants to.

JakaB,

MY test of a good to great golf course is:
Do I want to go to the 1st tee as soon as I leave the 18th green ?

That was my feeling the first time I played Maidstone and Hidden Creek, and a few others.

Hence, I don't think courses are built for the one time player.
Noone wins if that's the case.
The lure is the desire to play the golf course again,  and again, and again.

Mr. Kavanaugh - give them credit for being able to do different things at different courses. Colorado Golf Club opens this year, and from what I've seen the greens there will be a subtle bunch. There will surely be internal contours, but you'll find few if any buried elephants.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "not natural."

John K.,

For one thing, I'm not exactly sure what internal contour means.  Does this mean greens that possess additional ridges, slopes, and contours, beyond the gradual sloping that green uses to fit the land it occupies?  Or does it mean contours that do not extend all the way to the green's edges?  I'd like to see someone define this.

Without some variation in contour, the greens will have constant slopes, and yield putts with parabolic trajectories all day long.  That's boring.

I like variety.
I like putts that barely trickle downhill, and putts I have to really hit hard uphill.
I like putts that are interesting and difficult to read.
I especially like putts that fool me.

Although I agree with Cary that putts that break five times are excessive, I don't think I've ever encountered a putt of that type.

I think I like internal contours.  And I agree that it can be overdone in places.  I liked the greens at Bandon Trails.  Some were pretty simple.  #11 is amazingly flat.  #5 and #16 are very complex.  Good variety, yielding a good variety of putts.

The other JK

I was recently looking through a resort golf book/ picture book and stumbled upon this quote.

“Every green is its own individual fingerprint. Some are undulating, some are two levels, some are three, some slope gently from front to back and some from back to front. You’ll never say, I’ve played this green already.”

-From John Haines, head golf pro at Teton Pines

JK, are you trying to say you want more variety and not just a roller coaster ride green after green?

KBM,
HALLELUJAH!

JakaB,

How do you read break with your feet on 10-20-30-40+ foot putts ?

Don't play WFW.
It's one of the most difficult sets of greens to read that I've ever played, and playing barefoot won't help you much.

If you read putts with your feet, which I doubt, that would explain why you call yourself a bad putter.

You start reading greens before you even reach them.
It's a process not confined to foot work.
It also involves the surrounds and sight.

See, see the ball, be, be the ball.