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Jim Johnson

What's so great about Pine Valley?
« on: April 24, 2006, 08:03:41 PM »
This has probably been posted before, but...

Having never played there, and not imagining that I will ever get the chance to play there, I'm curious...why is Pine Valley annually ranked as the top course [or at worst, in the top 3 of courses] in the U.S.?

Is it the green complexes?

Or the conditioning of the course itself?

Is it the variety of holes?

Is it strictly because of the architectural merits of the course? And if so, exactly what comes immediately to mind?

Is it the difficulty?

Or the terrain?

I am guessing it is the cumulative effect of any or all of the above, but it would neat to hear otherwise.

I guess this is aimed primarily at those of you fortunate enough to have played the course. For those others of us, it would be interesting hearing a [brief] synopsis of your reason for its greatness.

JJ


David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 08:10:32 PM »
I think Ran's profile goes a long way towards explaining what is perceived to be Pine Valley's greatness.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/pinevalley1.html
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

redanman

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2006, 09:20:56 PM »
Greens
par 3's
par 4's
par 5's
bunkering
scale
routing
etc.

but...

for a course of its character and reputation, its stellar membership and the overall respect for the game shown at the valley,  what really makes Pine Valley so great is that people play Pine Valley all the time.  It is a warm and friendly place where good old-fashioned true gentlemen are always present.  THAT sets it apart from some other courses that are almost museum places or places where one feels one is 'walking on eggshells' or insouciance is the order of the day.

Pine Valley is the brotherly love of golf. (and all those architectural things, too)

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2006, 09:28:36 PM »
You cannot understand until you have played there.

Bob

David Panzarasa

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2006, 09:34:09 PM »
For me what made it so amazing were the stories the caddies were telling me. I was blunt with my questions and they just answered it all. About people that have played there, who is nice and who is not, who is good who is not....the person that took me out was telling me that he was inducted as a member with President Ford. That alone was chilling to me. Stories of President Bush and secret service, and who hit certain par 5's in two. Just amazing!
 Once driving in, you get a feeling....the guards at the front alone made my day. The old clubhouse and the history walking around there. How shockingly nice people were there from members to the people working in the pro shop compared to other high end private country clubs. It certainly is an event. An event I am proud to say I did and will remember forever.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2006, 09:55:25 PM »
A buddy of mine from North Carolina recently became the asst. pro there. He said there is alot of playing with members and hanging out involved. Talk about all of our's dream job!
H.P.S.

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2006, 10:32:24 PM »
A buddy of mine from North Carolina recently became the asst. pro there. He said there is alot of playing with members and hanging out involved. Talk about all of our's dream job!


Pat-

your buddy doesnt happen to have gone to Methodist College has he?

Wayne Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2006, 12:22:20 AM »
JJ-  I've been fortunate to play there once and I have always felt that PV is definitely in a class by itself. It's just so perfectly laid out-  it's as if some higher being just painted it into the landscape.  The soil and sand are ideal-  the bunkers so natural-  no rakes are present-  you just smooth out the sand with your shoes and move on.
  To me-  every hole was an architectural masterpiece, and there is so much variety that you could never tire of the experience.  The par 3 5th is an amazing hole-  said to be the shortest par 5 in America.  The greens there are incredible-  very fast, large and undulating.  
       

Jim Johnson

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2006, 01:16:22 AM »
David,

I read Ran's profile of Pine Valley awhile ago, thanks for the reminder. It makes for great reading, as does Thomas MacWood's profile of George Crump under "In My Opinion". Great stuff.

But, I would just enjoy hearing from anybody who's actually played the course, and get their personal feelings about why the place is so special...what makes it so great in their mind.

Bill, Bob, David, Wayne...thanks for the insight. Anybody else care to chime in?

JJ

Mike_Sweeney

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2006, 06:44:03 AM »
JJ,

I grew up in Philly and played Merion, Philly CC, Cobbs, Llanarch, Atlantic City.... with friends and playing high school golf there. However at my 25th high school reunion last fall, I still had not played Pine Valley GC, but that changed about a month later when I finally played Pine Valley.

It was a soup to nuts experience with staying in the cabins, playing the Short Course, dinner and breakfast in the clubhouse...

Growing up in Philly, you tend to be dismissive of local greatness. I certainly do not appreciate Merion enough, but that is probably because I have been playing it with friends for 30 years. Pine Valley sits 60 miles from the ocean, and I have always been a sucker for ocean courses (see Pebble Beach). I had played a bunch of the Pine Valley imitators, including WW Pine Barrens which I also love, so how great can Pine Valley be?

The greatness of Pine Valley, for me, really starts and ends with the golf course. The clubhouse, entrance gate, cabins .... are all very cool and fit the atmosphere perfectly, but every hole there is at least very good and many are all world. Despite what my other thread may convey, there is plenty of width there at PV. Most of what Jim Sullivan says is true, it is more for GCA.com asthetics to pull out trees. Every shot, every green is unique from each other. The only course in my mind that has a similar trait is National, with Cypress and Sand Hills being extremely close.

I did not find it overly penal, however the greens were very reasonable speed in late fall. As long as that other thread on PV 17 goes, I think that you could easily do that to each hole. Great club, extremely unique great course.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 06:57:51 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2006, 07:17:29 AM »
I've walked PV twice, and it truly is a magical place.  It's sensory overload.  You drive in from South Jersey suburban "blah" and enter golf heaven.  It even smells good.  The sounds are there too.  

You lose all connection to the outside world once you go past the PV police station (PV is a legal NJ bourough - apparently so they can serve liquor - I think the surrounding township is dry).  

The course is simply the best I've ever seen.  Angles are key.  The hazards are diabolical.  The greens are awesome.  The conditioning is first rate.  Every member I spoke with was very friendly and proud of their gem.

It's like the best concert you've ever been to, or the finest gallery, or the finest restaurant - you don't want it to end and you want to take it in again and again.

And I feel that way just walking it!  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2006, 08:00:11 AM »

You lose all connection to the outside world once you go past the PV police station (PV is a legal NJ bourough - apparently so they can serve liquor - I think the surrounding township is dry).  


Does this "legal borough" status provide some security to PV from the eminent domain fear many clubs might be thinking about right now?

redanman

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2006, 08:45:52 AM »
it is more for GCA.com asthetics to pull out trees.

I thought the aesthetic fixation was bunker "look"?  Trees are a competing ecosystem.

There's more than aesthetics to tree control and it's well said on this board many a time.  Any course can benefit from removal of gunch and fully grown trees to aid the turf.  

The turf is key to any golf course and Pine valley demands the absolute best from you, so even though it is on a near perfect sandy soil base, why not improve the air circulation and some of the competing (and shading) flora to reach even closer to perfection?

Sir Sweeney

I Agree with you about PVGC and NGLA being the two closest in  that feel.

Uncle Bill

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2006, 09:02:02 AM »
This has probably been posted before, but...

Having never played there, and not imagining that I will ever get the chance to play there, I'm curious...why is Pine Valley annually ranked as the top course [or at worst, in the top 3 of courses] in the U.S.?

Is it the green complexes?

Or the conditioning of the course itself?

Is it the variety of holes?

Is it strictly because of the architectural merits of the course? And if so, exactly what comes immediately to mind?

Is it the difficulty?

Or the terrain?

I am guessing it is the cumulative effect of any or all of the above, but it would neat to hear otherwise.

I guess this is aimed primarily at those of you fortunate enough to have played the course. For those others of us, it would be interesting hearing a [brief] synopsis of your reason for its greatness.

JJ



JJ - if you have a chance, go to Crump Cup (I believe third Sunday every September). They let the public walk the course. I mean really walk - middle of fairways; you can stand right next to mid-amateurs making their iron shots. They even (gasp) don't chase the curious off the greens!

As people said - the place is magical. A little slice of golfing heaven, a world unto itself. Walking it like that is the next best thing to playing there. The members mill around and will answer your questions. You can't enter the clubhouse or buy souvenirs, of course (I know, my wife tried to sweet-talk some guy at the clubhouse entrance to get me a shirt  :) ) - no can do.

But everybody was soooo nice.

Those two walks on the PV grounds are one of the highlights of my golfing life, ranking right up there with 3 trips to Scotland and Ireland, attending the Masters, and playing Shinny and Pebble.

Glenn Spencer

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2006, 09:39:16 AM »
The pictures and the stories say it all!!!! What pictures are you looking at that would make you ask that question?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2006, 11:19:00 AM »
You might try to doing a search on the Crump Cup. I've found Tom Paul's, Jamie Slonis's and Michael Wharton-Palmer's posts on the competition to be among the most enlightening about the course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Johnson

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2006, 11:25:51 AM »
Glenn,

Actually, I can never get enough of looking at pics posted on this website by people who have actually been there. I seem to enjoy them more than a course's actual website.

Anybody have any more photos of PV they can share with us?

JJ

wsmorrison

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2006, 12:31:41 PM »
What's not great at Pine Valley?  ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Jay Carstens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2006, 02:38:51 PM »
They have 18 good holes.  Can anybody else say that?
Play the course as you find it

redanman

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2006, 05:25:11 PM »
They have 18 good holes.  Can anybody else say that?

NGLA  That's why I posted as above.  :)

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2006, 05:49:24 PM »
The Lamb Chops

















They leave the Tylenol Cap unscrewed in Dormie House for those with arthritis who could not get the "Adult Proof Cap" off in any case,



















AND EVERYTHING ELSE!!!

Just a little levity.

JWK

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2006, 05:54:33 PM »
They have 18 good holes.  Can anybody else say that?

NGLA  That's why I posted as above.  :)

I'm not saying it's necessarily in the category of Pine Valley and NGLA, but Pacific Dunes has 18 good holes.  Some better than others, but all good holes.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2006, 05:58:15 PM »
David Owen once wrote an article saying that the "signature" food at certain courses is overrated....

is the snapper soup there overrated?  

we've had a pet turtle in the family for 40 years -still alive! - so I don't think I could try it......
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

wsmorrison

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2006, 06:34:39 PM »
Are 5 and 9 great holes at NGLA?  I don't think 9 is.

Jim Johnson

Re:What's so great about Pine Valley?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2006, 07:29:30 PM »
I'd like to hear your thoughts on hole #13 at PV, for those of you who have played the course.

From photos and from what I have read about it, it looks like an awesome hole.

JJ

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