Does Arthur Hills work for Free?

« **on:** April 23, 2006, 12:42:57 PM »

I just played Longaberger yesterday for the first time and was severely disappointed. The land was fabulous and the golf course was a complete letdown in my mind. He has done some of the worst holes in America in my mind already at Shaker Run- #6 and Fox Run #18 and Pipestone #18. After seeing #8 at Longaberger, I am ready to put this hole in that category. Wow, is that a bad a hole. I really wish this guy would find another state besides Ohio to terrorize!!! I can't believe this guy is paid to design these golf courses. Longaberger could have been great, instead it is decidedly average at best for the money and reputation.

« **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:04:41 PM »

Quote from: Glenn Spencer on April 23, 2006, 12:42:57 PM

I really wish this guy would find another state besides Ohio to terrorize!!!

Well, your prayers might be answered.

Arthur Hills/Steve Forrest are by far the most well represented north american architect team here in Sweden.
Just in the last two years they have designed three courses - Hills, Sand and Torekulla. They have also been contracted for 27 new holes at Vasatorp.

I haven't played any of their courses yet, but will later this year. Therefore it would be really interesting to know exactly what you dislike about their work in general - and also explain a bit about more in detail about the holes that you mentioned.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:18:51 PM »

Quote from: Glenn Spencer on April 23, 2006, 12:42:57 PM

I just played Longaberger yesterday for the first time and was severely disappointed. The land was fabulous and the golf course was a complete letdown in my mind. He has done some of the worst holes in America in my mind already at Shaker Run- #6 and Fox Run #18 and Pipestone #18. After seeing #8 at Longaberger, I am ready to put this hole in that category. Wow, is that a bad a hole. I really wish this guy would find another state besides Ohio to terrorize!!! I can't believe this guy is paid to design these golf courses. Longaberger could have been great, instead it is decidedly average at best for the money and reputation.

This is what I was talking about in another post.....what is gained by slamming Arthur Hills??? Who ends up looking worse? This is just a lead in to try and find "modern bashers" JMO.....

« **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:38:14 PM »

I play an Arthur Hills course, Harbour Point, at least four times a month.

I love it, even if it may be a little bit contrived.

« **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:39:29 PM »

Glenn states it too strongly using the word terrorize to describe Mr. Hills' work. However, I played Longaberger last summer and though it did have some very good holes and at least one great green, it was in general disappointing given the land the course sits on.
I don't remember the holes off the top of my head, but the worst hole there IMO was the downhill par 5 that was guarded by water right, and gully/brush/trees left. No rational person would go for that green in two with more than a five iron, and yet the layup was a very short iron if you decided to take three shots to get to the green. The target of the green on the second shot was just super small.
The par 3 that followed that hole had an interesting green that completely fooled me. I watched my ball break about 6 feet more than I could see. Hills had at least 2-3 other greens that were very tricky to figure out. Kudos to him for that. The hole after the par 3 (I think) was a shortish dogleg right hole with a most interesting green. The left side of the green in front sloped toward you, and then about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way into the green it went away from you. The left side and general sloped down to the right, and I seem to remember a nice back right pin position that would be a doozy to get to with the bunkers guarding the green on the right side.
All in all, Longaberger is a decent course, but a little overpriced for the architecture you are seeing. I feel the land was worthy of a better course. Of course I don't know any of the issues that were faced with the site or what the client's wishes were with that project.

« **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2006, 03:05:59 PM »

Thanks for filling me in, Ed.

I look forward to experience their work, with an open mind, in couple of weeks or so.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2006, 03:20:32 PM »

Newport National is a Hills design that is quite good. I though the bunker work could have been more inspired, but that is a minor quibble. The course is one of the best public layouts in Rhode Island (I know, I know, that isn't saying much considering the low quality of public offerings in RI. Even still, Newport National is very good.)

« **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2006, 03:49:52 PM »

Sheppard's Hollow in Clarkston, MI is a really good 27 hole layout which I found tremendously fun to play. If Mr. Hills charged $1,000,000 for this project the owners got their money's worth - no question.

« **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2006, 04:01:40 PM »

Mike,

I am not trying to lead into anything, I am just wondering who the man sleeps with to get his work. He is the only architect, when I get stuck playing his courses, that constantly has me either hitting a 80-yard lay-up shot or a 230 yard 2,3iron to a green that was meant for a wedge. He is the only architect that has ever asked me to hit a 255-272-yard shot down the left side of a faiway or be faced with the chance of making triple-no.6 at Shaker Run. Ed hit the nail on the head with that par 5 comment, it is horrible. 8 is even worse, no way there is an architect who has more horrible holes on their resume. No Way!!!

« **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2006, 04:07:56 PM »

Glenn,
Which hole is #8?
I just noticed your comment that Thomas Bjorn will win a major.

That poor guy has more demons running around in his head than my 10 handicap brain. And I can think up 20 bad things just in my backswing. The downswing is too hard to quantify.

Everything is happening to fast at that point, as anyone who has golfed with me can relate.

« **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2006, 04:36:41 PM »

Ed,

8 is the hole with the tree at the edge of the fairway and the ramped up right side of fairway, it leads to a peninsula type green at the end. I can't imagine how that hole is meant to be played. Thomas will have his day, hopefully you too on a different level

« **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2006, 04:56:51 PM »

Glenn,
I have not seen the course or courses that are being discussed but I have played some of his courses and I don't mind them at all....
And obviously many others don't.
That is all I am saying.
Mike

« **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2006, 06:07:13 PM »

Re: #8 I still couldn't remember the hole so I looked it up on Google. I thought that approach shot was pretty cool. Definitely causes some puckering off a downhill, sidehill lie (generally from the rough where most drives end up due to the slope of the land). Not a great hole, but if you think that is bad you need to get out more.

« **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2006, 06:07:22 PM »

Longerberger is a decent course, but it is WAY overpriced...but hey, if you can get people to pay it why not

« **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2006, 06:09:38 PM »

Paul,
What is your take on the par 5 I described? I looked it up. It's #4. The other holes I talked about were #5 and #6. #6 green was the one I really liked. I agree it was overpriced. Fortunately we played twilight which is a better deal and just squeezed in the last hole as it got dark. Plus they kicked in a free logo towel.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2006, 08:38:59 PM »

Ed,

It may very well be true that I need to get out more.

I don't know what the regular fees are. 135? If that is the case, that is about as bad a hole as I could imagine playing for that price, what really gets me though, is the poor CPC guys that qualified for a once in a lifetime opportunity to play in a major and had to traverse that dump. One year it is at Kiawah and a couple of years before it is at Longaberger, that is unfortunate. I really did not like that joint, 1,4,7,8,11 all were just awful holes and the only one that was worth a damn was 17.

« **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:23:31 PM »

Glenn:

I think Michigan has more to complain about than Ohio

On another thread about West Michigan golf, I mentioned that the 2nd hole at Thoroughbred (Muskegon) may be the single worst hole I've ever played. I wish the website did the hole (in)justice.

I think the par 5's he designs are well below average.

Mike Young:

Your comment about not minding his courses reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons. Krusty the Klown is doing a commercial for Krusty Burger's new Ribwich sandwich. He states "I don't mind the taste!"

Overall, Ed's phrase "disappointing given the land the course sits on" hits the nail on the head for me.

Regards,

Doug

« **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:43:30 PM »

Quote from: Doug Sobieski on April 23, 2006, 09:23:31 PM

Glenn:

I think Michigan has more to complain about than Ohio On another thread about West Michigan golf, I mentioned that the 2nd hole at Thoroughbred (Muskegon) may be the single worst hole I've ever played. I wish the website did the hole (in)justice.

I think the par 5's he designs are well below average.

Mike Young:

Your comment about not minding his courses reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons. Krusty the Klown is doing a commercial for Krusty Burger's new Ribwich sandwich. He states "I don't mind the taste!"

I was in Pinehurst during the ASGCA annual meeting and played with a couple of your brethren. We discussed that he rarely extracts the potential of a site (e.g. Bay Harbor), so I don't think Glenn is that far off base (sure, maybe he could have sugar-coated it a bit, but at least it stimulated a discussion). I've yet to play one of his efforts that I truly wished I could play again. A few fun holes here and there, but in particular not a lot of strategy involved to get you thinking on the tee. I would think that with such an extensive portfolio to choose from that I might find something to get excited about, but I haven't. And I love modern golf courses, so I'm not biased toward the classics like a lot of people on here. I'm being very sincere when I ask you, if there is a course of his that is worth a special trip to see something special, please let me know. I want to keep an open mind, but I need something to convince me. What I've seen so far (maybe a dozen or so) hasn't done it.

Overall, Ed's phrase "disappointing given the land the course sits on" hits the nail on the head for me.

Regards,

Doug

Doug,
As for you playing with my brethren in Pinehurst....not exactly correct since I am not a member of ASGCA even though I am sure you played with some nice guys.....
My issue with this thread is the title itself...a simple answer would be ...No. OK some of you don't like his work....we all have people that don't like our work.....
It has been awhile but I recall enjoying the courses at Skidaway Island in Savannah. Golf Club of Georgia is fine.....but disregarding Art hills for a moment...I don't know of many course worth a special trip to play in the SE...comes with the territory...JMO
Mike

« **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2006, 10:26:09 PM »

Doug,

If that is the case, I will steer clear. I have played some nice courses in Michigan and I will miss it.

You are so right, it seems like the par 5's are where he really gets bad. It always seems like there is a tree involved somewhere in the middle of the fairway or just no place to lay-up at all.

Mike,

Yes, the title could have been answered with the word no- brilliant deduction. The only problem is that I was being facetious. Make a trip to Southwest Ohio sometime and see if you don't understand what I am talking about. I looked at his
website and he has designed all these courses around the world and I can't think of one that I would walk across the street to play. Isn't Longaberger one of his better thought of projects?

« **Reply #19 on:** April 23, 2006, 10:42:45 PM »

I didn't realize that Newport National was an Arthur Hills design until I read the comment here, but that is one of my favorite public courses in New England.

Thinking about it makes me want to go back and play it again. I think I'll go look at my pictures.

« **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2006, 12:14:35 AM »

Quote from: Glenn Spencer on April 23, 2006, 04:01:40 PM

He is the only architect that has ever asked me to hit a 255-272-yard shot down the left side of a faiway or be faced with the chance of making triple-no.6 at Shaker Run.

I don't see how this is the ONLY way to avoid triple here. I have never had such a drive and have only done so bad once. I think it is a matter of taste. I happen to love Shaker Run and make a special trip once a year to play it with friends. I also like his course in StL, Pevely Farms. We have 2 Arthur Hills courses here in Atl that I know of one gets real good reviews the other many don't like at all. I have not played either.

« **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2006, 09:12:11 AM »

I take it all back, I love Arthur Hills. His work makes just makes me appreciate how good, good is or how average with no bad holes is a good golf course. Every time I play a great golf course from here on out, I will appreciate it all the more. I always knew I loved a great golf course, I just did not know how much!!!! Thanks Arthur!!!!

« **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2006, 09:54:00 AM »

Does Arthur Hills make the green fees.

No

Does Arthur Hills control the course conditioning.

Nope

Did Arthur Hills build a course he felt was great, others felt was great, and that has gotten national recognition.

Yes

Like it or hate it, it is what it is and nothing will change that.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2006, 10:03:26 AM »

Jordan,

You are correct on all three counts. Are you defending the course, the man or just trying to make me understand something?

« **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2006, 10:05:22 AM »

Glenn, You are blasting some of Arthurs best work. He is a real good man and takes his work seriously. His work ethic is beyond reproach. However, that does not mean you will like his work. I would not put him in the artist club nor most creative, but he does understand his business as good as anybody.

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