OB 13 of 18 holes

« **on:** April 13, 2006, 09:07:12 PM »

can a course be considered an excellent challenge when there are 13 holes where OB in play?

« **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2006, 09:10:33 PM »

Sure it can be an excellent challenge...but probably not fun a'tall.

Joe

« **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2006, 09:21:29 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooo

« **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2006, 09:25:01 PM »

Only if the course is located in Kobe Bryant's hometown.

« **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2006, 10:17:49 PM »

I find Whitemarsh's OB much more intrusive than Merion's, if that is the course you are speaking of.It is a good setup though.

« **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2006, 09:32:14 AM »

i actually had both of those courses in mind as well as a few others.

merion east - 14 holes w/ ob in play
merion west - 11
phila cricket - 12

so i guess it is clear that a course can have that much OB and still be considered a great course. But how would a new course constructed today with that much OB be regarded?

« **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2006, 09:43:40 AM »

I believe there is definitely such a thing as being overly penal. We have a course here in San Jose, CA that's been discussed a few times in here called THE RANCH AT SILVER CREEK that has a place to lose a golf ball on BOTH SIDES of every single hole. Most is OB, the rest is water hazard. That's too much - primarily because it's really in play on every single shot.

I think the key here is how much "in play" the OB is. If it is directly in the shot pattern of too many shots, that's too much. Now "too many shots" is up for debate... If it's on only side of 14 holes, and sometimes it's the tee shot, sometimes it's by the green only, that might not be too much. But both sides of the entire hole on 14 holes? I'd say that's too much.

But other positives might outweigh this, as well... as I'd have to guess is the case at the Philadelphia courses mentioned.

TH

« **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2006, 09:47:05 AM »

shit, I had NO idea that Merion E had that much ob when I played it...I played pretty well that day

hopefully I shall forget that fact next time I play it!

« **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2006, 09:49:18 AM »

OB is around more than most people realize. However, it rarely enters play as a strategic hazard - so we don't really think about it unless we're fighting that duck hook (Kyle) or that faux shank/banana ball (Doug Braunsdorf).

What is interesting about Philly Cricket is how the OB is integrated on the 12th in the form of the Quarry/Wissahickon Coure. A new back tee could bring that very much into play as a strategic hazard.

« **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2006, 09:58:49 AM »

You mean like Flynn's back tee that dictated a tee shot over the quarry? I hear they might be putting the tee back in. Is that so? That would be awesome and of course will bring the left fairway bunkers much more into play.

OB at Merion really only weighs on my mind on 2. Ardmore Avenue beckons, especially with the tee boxes purposefully aimed in that direction. OB on 6 also comes into play a bit more. Not really on 7 and 8 because few hit driver on those holes. OB on 14 can come into play if you get greedy. 15 comes into play for long hitters and has determined the outcome of a few national championships.

« **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:02:15 AM »

Quote from: Wayne Morrison on April 14, 2006, 09:58:49 AM

You mean like Flynn's back tee that dictated a tee shot over the quarry? I hear they might be putting the tee back in. Is that so? That would be awesome and of course will bring the left fairway bunkers much more into play.

OB at Merion really only weighs on my mind on 2. Ardmore Avenue beckons, especially with the tee boxes purposefully aimed in that direction. OB on 6 also comes into play a bit more. Not really on 7 and 8 because few hit driver on those holes. OB on 14 can come into play if you get greedy. 15 comes into play for long hitters and has determined the outcome of a few national championships.

Had no idea Flynn proposed that. Cory and I talked about it when we played there in February.

Don't you aim for the OB on 8 at Merion East? Or is that just Tom Paul play?

« **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:48:34 AM »

at merion the OB is very much in play on many of the 14 holes. one of things that is great about the course is that usually the best place to be on certain holes (flattest lie, best/shortest angle) is closer to the OB.

#2 more level lie on right side, same on #7
#8 must be played down right side
#14 shorter 2nd shot from left

just some examples, it is clear that wilson tried to entice players to play closer to the OB.

« **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:50:22 AM »

Careful, or you'll throw The Old Course under the bus.

Mike

« **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:19:36 PM »

Mike - not really. TOC has OB on one side of almost every hole, true. But that's not too much, because one can play away from it so easily on every single shot.

Too much is a situation like THE RANCH - both sides of every single shot, no way to avoid.

TH

« **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:59:07 PM »

Kyle,

I hit seven wood over the left center of the right bunker. There's plenty of room over there. That is a fascinating tee shot where you really need to play away from the green and that hazardous fairway bunker on the left. Resist the line of instinct and find the line of charm. But there is no need to flirt with OB right.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:13:28 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on April 14, 2006, 12:19:36 PM

Mike - not really. TOC has OB on one side of almost every hole, true. But that's not too much, because one can play away from it so easily on every single shot.

TH

Tom Huckaby,

I have the proof to say that you are wrong. I am the only other person that I know of, besides Ian Baker-Finch, that hit it OB on No.1 at The Old Course. I aimed down the left side and the ball ran and ran until it reached the end of Pilmour Place and trickled under the fence.

It was in the Autumn Medal and the Big Room behind the tee was full. I could almost hear the gasp of horror as I teed up again.

Bob

« **Reply #16 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:16:54 PM »

Bob:

I feel for you and on this holy day shall offer a prayer for your golfing soul.

And I also stand corrected.

« **Reply #17 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:02:33 PM »

there is a member of merion who claims to have hit a ball out of bounds on every hole on the course.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:27:54 PM »

I admit to hitting it ob left on 1 of TOC.Then hit in play.Was so rattled I hit my short iron 4th shot 20 yards.Nice 8 to start.That round included an eagle at 5 after second shot hit within inches.Glad it missed.I would have had to keep card.I dont believe the new course is ob when playing old.

« **Reply #19 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:30:52 PM »

all this talk of OB

...I shan't read any more of it

n ext thing I know there will be a thread on the S____k's!!!

« **Reply #20 on:** April 15, 2006, 09:04:51 PM »

what do you guys think?
could a course constructed today with this much OB in play, not just on the outskirts, be considered a good or even a great golf course.

« **Reply #21 on:** April 16, 2006, 06:36:08 AM »

Quote from: D_Malley on April 15, 2006, 09:04:51 PM

what do you guys think?
could a course constructed today with this much OB in play, not just on the outskirts, be considered a good or even a great golf course.

If you look at Merion, it breaks many GCA Rules of Thumb:

. too many OB
. too small of property
. artificial pond on # 9
. changes to the original routing
. Tom Fazio has been there
. the USGA has been there
. six hole stretch of short holes
. Richie Valentine is no longer there
. amateur 2-4 time architect and Merion was his first
. course divided by roads
. walks between holes cross other holes

There are probably others. Yet other than Mayday

, everyone loves that course even when they play poorly on a first trip.

To answer your question, no an architect would get killed if he had that much OB today. However, I tend to agree with Wayne that OB really only strikes fear in me on #2. Please be clear that I have hit it on others.

« **Reply #22 on:** April 16, 2006, 09:00:13 AM »

Quote from: Bob_Huntley on April 14, 2006, 01:13:28 PM

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on April 14, 2006, 12:19:36 PM
Mike - not really. TOC has OB on one side of almost every hole, true. But that's not too much, because one can play away from it so easily on every single shot.

TH

Tom Huckaby,

I have the proof to say that you are wrong. I am the only other person that I know of, besides Ian Baker-Finch, that hit it OB on No.1 at The Old Course. I aimed down the left side and the ball ran and ran until it reached the end of Pilmour Place and trickled under the fence.

It was in the Autumn Medal and the Big Room behind the tee was full. I could almost hear the gasp of horror as I teed up again.

Bob

Bob,

Swedish pro Anders Forsbrand can also be included in this exclusive group of players who drove it OB, to the left, on the first at TOC.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 16, 2006, 10:17:21 AM »

mike

one thing you said that counters the gca rule of thumb that struck me as interesting was "walks between holes cross other holes"

i believe that this feature is one that indicates a very good architext that is very creative and uses the property to full advantage. I also believe that the fact that we do not see this as much today proves how un-creative many of todays course designers are. This shows us why they need 250 acres to build a course now.

« **Reply #24 on:** April 16, 2006, 10:31:37 AM »

if the OB at Merion only weighs on your mind on one hole (#2) i think you have just not played the course enough. as a person who has been around the course over 1000 times as a caddy and player you begin to understand just how much OB is an integral part of the design.

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