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John Kavanaugh

Routing by one..built by another...
« on: April 11, 2006, 03:05:15 PM »
How common and what are some examples of projects where one architect routed a course and another built it.  I already know about CPC..so don't bother..

james soper

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2006, 03:13:51 PM »
secession - i heard pete dye did the routing but ended up having disagreements with the owners over the 14th hole. bruce devlin came in and finished the job. i just don't know how much work pete had completed before devlin came in. i'm sure someone in this group knows the whole story. doak mentioned it in the confidential guide.

Jason Mandel

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2006, 03:15:28 PM »
Original Stonewall

Routing by Fazio
Construction  by DOAK

« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 03:16:01 PM by Jason Mandel »
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Kyle Harris

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2006, 03:15:39 PM »
Talamore at Oak Terrace: Geoff Cornish routing, Bob Levy, Jr. design.

Matt MacIver

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2006, 03:15:41 PM »
Does PV count (partially)?

Others know better but Musgrove Mill was routed by Palmer/Seay and then designed by a local attorney and club founder.  

Brad Swanson

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2006, 03:25:51 PM »
JakaB,
   Your brother designed at least one course routed by a different architect.  Can you name it (and the archie that routed it)?

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

John Kavanaugh

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2006, 03:32:42 PM »
JakaB,
   Your brother designed at least one course routed by a different architect.  Can you name it (and the archie that routed it)?

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

I've really been kind of a jerk when it comes to following my brothers career...You'll have to help me out with this one. (I even just cheated and went to KenKavanaugh.com trying to get the answer.)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2006, 03:37:20 PM »
East Hampton, C&C on a Fazio routing.

Brad Swanson

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2006, 03:39:25 PM »
John,
   From what I've been told, Murphy Creek in Aurora, CO was routed by Art Schaupter/Keith Foster.  I'm not sure if the orignal routing was altered in any way when your brother finished the job.

Cheers,
Brad

John Kavanaugh

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2006, 03:41:22 PM »
John,
   From what I've been told, Murphy Creek in Aurora, CO was routed by Art Schaupter/Keith Foster.  I'm not sure if the orignal routing was altered in any way when your brother finished the job.

Cheers,
Brad

Thanks,

I needed a conversation breaker at Christmas...

John_Cullum

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2006, 03:56:33 PM »
There should be plenty of Ross examples. I believe based on what older members told me, Ross routed Savannah Golf Club but it was built by Les Hall, who was the greenskeeper.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

BCrosby

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2006, 04:26:59 PM »
John -

I suspect what he means is architects who designed a course on someone else's routing.

Otherwise, about 300 of Ross's courses would count.

Bob

TEPaul

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2006, 05:33:01 PM »
"East Hampton, C&C on a Fazio routing."

Mike:

Easthampton is not a Fazio routing--it was done by a couple of real layman, one of which I know, a long time ago. C&C probably would've changed it but obviously they didn't feel like starting all over from Square One out there in that beauracratic mess and waiting about two more decades.  ;)

Brad Klein

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2006, 05:36:30 PM »
Never happens these days, except:

Seven Canyons, routed by Ken Kavanaugh, designed by Tom Weiskopf

Legend Trail, routed by Forrest Richardson, designed by Rees Jones

The Preserve, routed by J. Mike Poellot, designed by Tom Fazio
« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 05:37:24 PM by Brad Klein »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2006, 05:47:35 PM »
"East Hampton, C&C on a Fazio routing."

Mike:

Easthampton is not a Fazio routing--it was done by a couple of real layman, one of which I know, a long time ago.

That wouldn't be Barry Bistrian, would it?

ChasLawler

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2006, 05:49:51 PM »
Does ANGC qualify??

Eric Franzen

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2006, 05:53:36 PM »
And to stretch it a bit further... would TOC qualify?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 05:55:42 PM by Eric Franzen »

Brad Swanson

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2006, 06:07:22 PM »
Here's another from Colorado

The Ridge at Castle Pines North was routed by Nicklaus and designed by Weiskopf.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

TEPaul

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2006, 06:24:26 PM »
Scott:

Yep, that's one of them. The other guy is Roy Parker, a man about the Hamptons for years. At least that's what Roy told me. When I responded; "Oh, bullshit, don't give me that crap.", he said no seriously just ask Bill Coore. And so I did.

Did you ever hear how Coore and Crenshaw came to do Easthampton G.C.? They had everyone assembled and ready to go at Friar's Head and BOOM, some other environmental Nazi popped up and shut that project down for at least a year.

Apparently the Bistrians heard about that and called up Ben and Bill and said; "We have this little piece of land in Easthampton and we initially wanted to build a little public course on it but we don't know how to do it---would you please, please, please help us?", and so Ben and Bill said; "Aaah, sure we will." and C&C and the Boys since they were out there ready to go anyway hightailed it down to Easthampton and built them a neat little course on an inherited routing by a couple of laymen and basically about half a pretty shitty property.

One time I said to Bill Coore; "I think Easthampton is a great little course", and Bill said; "No it isn't but we're very proud that we could do what we did there."   ;)

Paul Carey

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2006, 09:14:32 PM »
I believe that the routing at Four Streams was originally done by Jerry Pate (subject to the rules of the Peoples Republic of Montgomery County MD) and the design by Steve Smyers and Nick Price.  I will check with my friend John Stock tomorrow to confirm.

Mike Boehm

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2006, 09:19:43 PM »
I believe one of the better courses in Myrtle Beach, Tidewater, was a Rees Jones routing but designed by Ken Tomlinson.

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2006, 09:26:41 PM »
Aldarra in Seattle preliminary routing by Palmer/Seay and finished by Fazio

Chris Kane

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2006, 09:43:27 PM »
RMW - routed by Mackenzie, built by Russell/Morcom.

Brad Klein

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Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2006, 09:55:02 PM »
We ought to divide these into cooperative or extended-time relationships vs. the hostile takeover variety. Man's it's a tough business, this golf course architecture.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Routing by one..built by another...
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2006, 09:55:06 PM »
Oh heck, there's a billion of these, aren't there?

Seems to me a popular tactic for some lower budget courses is to engage an architect to help through the routing and possibly the environmental approval process and then drop him and build either internally or with lowest bidder contracting.  

For instance, you might want to ask David Gordon if he was happy with the outcome of the first iteration of the Mountain Valley course near Kyle's hometown.  

The problem is, once the course opens and its time to market, who is the architect of record?  Well, in the example above you had a choice between David Gordon and Herman Yadacufski.

Case closed. ;D