Riding triplex greensmowers vs. walking greensmowers

« **on:** April 09, 2006, 09:19:47 PM »

After reading the "double freakie" thread I noticed that the greens at ANGC had no mowing patterns this year. Thus it would be fair to assume that no mowing pattern would now be acdeptable to most clubs around the country that get their cue from ANGC TV views.
90% of golf courses have greens that can be cut with riding mowers at much less expense. The new riding mowers give just a good a cut with less psi than a walking mower. So the main reason left to use walkers is pattern. And with golf having the ecomonic issues it has today I would assume that we will see more riding of greens. Agree or disagree???

« **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:24:55 PM »

I don't disagree that at most courses the riders can reach very desirable close cut and very presentable work. But, in ANGC's case, all those contours are still best mowed by walking mowers, right? I'd have to believe that scalping and those extra worries that can happen to damage turf with triplex riders aren't worth the risk at Augusta.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:28:13 PM »

Just when I perfected walk mowing greens you say i am not needed anymore

« **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:37:04 PM »

Quote from: RJ_Daley on April 09, 2006, 09:24:55 PM

I don't disagree that at most courses the riders can reach very desirable close cut and very presentable work. But, in ANGC's case, all those contours are still best mowed by walking mowers, right? I'd have to believe that scalping and those extra worries that can happen to damage turf with triplex riders aren't worth the risk at Augusta.

I never said to ride ANGC....
I was saying many of the courses that are walked now will be riding iint the future....the cut is just as good now if the green contours can accept the riders....

« **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:45:47 PM »

Mike,
I can't say if clubs will adopt the same mowing method as ANGC, but you can count me as a supt who would choose walk mowing over triplex mowing whenever possible.
My reasons:
Walk mowing is much better on clean-up passes, especially during stress periods for the turf.

Even with the improved floating heads available on riding mowers, IMO walkers in the hands of a capable operator still handle severe contours better then riders.

Walkers are much easier on the collars/surrounds.

No chance of oil leaks with walkers

Although caring for a fleet of walkers is higher maintenance then riders, it's easier to get a walker "dialed in" at low heights of cuts (<.120) then getting all three units on a triplex matched perfectly.

I know all about the lower PSI argument used to sell triplexes-my experience is walkers are still easier on the green.

Although it's the operator not the machine, it is easier to keep a consistent green’s edge with walkers. It's very possible to maintain green edges and size with triplexes, but it takes diligent management.

Having said all that, very good greens can be maintained with riding greens mowers at much less cost.

Don

« **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:47:39 PM »

Mike,

I think it should be a combination of both. The whole issue mowing greens has gotten much more complicated and though the newer triplex mowers cut great its not the same. Also wear patterns are different between the two. Switching it up is working very well for me. I must say also I hate having the triplexes or anything with hydraulics on the greens.

Steve

« **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:52:14 PM »

Althought the cut with a triplex may be comparable, the damage caused by tight turning patterns and the desirability of enough room between bunkers and putting surfaces can be a serious downside to the triplexes.

And I play at a course where triplexes are used twelve months a year. Coming out of Winter there are some areas with some pretty ugly spots caused by maneuvering the big mowers!

« **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:57:53 PM »

Don,
I don't disagree with anything you say in your post.....Let me say that I was assuming clean up would be done with a walker.....
My thinking was that for many with larger greens and no tight turns the rider will return.....yes if given a choice and $$$ are not the object....walk

« **Reply #8 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:58:53 PM »

Does anyone know if a consideration has ever been made for the development of a triplex unit which has a movable carriage? I'm thinking of something where gangs could be held on a frame that adjust like the decks on a Toro Sidewinder so that the wear/stress of the inner tire could be moved or spread over time?

« **Reply #9 on:** April 09, 2006, 10:05:21 PM »

Jim,
Some riders have been built with the reels offset.
Changing up the clean-up pass from couter clockwise to clockwise meant the wheels were on a different track.

« **Reply #10 on:** April 09, 2006, 10:06:25 PM »

Last year I was able to purchase a John Deere 2500E diesel triplex greensmower. The reels have electric motors, not hydraulic motors. 2/3 of the potential hydraulic leaks were eliminated. Though a walking greensmower will never leak hydraulic oil, the JD2500E comes close. With the off set reels and the electric motors, the John Deere is the best riding greensmower on the market, IMHO.

I totally agree with Don, walking greensmowers are the way to go if you can afford the labor. Every mechanic I have ever known would prefer to maintain walking greensmowers over triplex greensmowers, hands down.

As for ANGC, I don't care. ANGC should be educating the golfing public about the tournament conditions and the typical conditions for the members. Of course, I will eat my words when I ever get to visit ANGC during the Masters.

Troy Alderson

« **Reply #11 on:** April 09, 2006, 11:16:31 PM »

Quote from: Mike_Young on April 09, 2006, 09:19:47 PM

After reading the "double freakie" thread I noticed that the greens at ANGC had no mowing patterns this year. Thus it would be fair to assume that no mowing pattern would now be acdeptable to most clubs around the country that get their cue from ANGC TV views.

90% of golf courses have greens that can be cut with riding mowers at much less expense.

I'd be interested in the quantification of "much less"
What's your guesstimate on that number on a seasonal and year round golf course ?[/color]

The new riding mowers give just a good a cut with less psi than a walking mower.[size=8x]

?[/color][/size]

So the main reason left to use walkers is pattern.
I would disagree with that.

Greens that drop off sharply at their perimeter are far more difficult to mow with riding mowers.

Being able to turn without damaging turf or creating safety issues are strong reasons not to use them.

And, I don't know that I agree with the equality in the quality of the cut position.[/color]

And with golf having the ecomonic issues it has today I would assume that we will see more riding of greens.

Agree or disagree???

Mike, I think it will remain primarily a "cultural" issue, remaining static unless financial pressures increase beyond the tolerable zone.[/color]

« **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2006, 01:08:15 AM »

A walker gives a better cut. We actually have out Triplex set .05 lower than our walkers to get the same cut....T-plex saves money on labor and that's the biggest concern for most.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2006, 07:47:54 AM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on April 09, 2006, 11:16:31 PM

Quote from: Mike_Young on April 09, 2006, 09:19:47 PM

After reading the "double freakie" thread I noticed that the greens at ANGC had no mowing patterns this year. Thus it would be fair to assume that no mowing pattern would now be acdeptable to most clubs around the country that get their cue from ANGC TV views.

90% of golf courses have greens that can be cut with riding mowers at much less expense.

I'd be interested in the quantification of "much less"
What's your guesstimate on that number on a seasonal and year round golf course ?[/color]

The new riding mowers give just a good a cut with less psi than a walking mower.[size=8x]

?[/color][/size]

So the main reason left to use walkers is pattern.
I would disagree with that.

Greens that drop off sharply at their perimeter are far more difficult to mow with riding mowers.

Being able to turn without damaging turf or creating safety issues are strong reasons not to use them.

And, I don't know that I agree with the equality in the quality of the cut position.[/color]

And with golf having the ecomonic issues it has today I would assume that we will see more riding of greens.

Agree or disagree???

Mike, I think it will remain primarily a "cultural" issue, remaining static unless financial pressures increase beyond the tolerable zone.[/color]

Pat,
I believe I said earlier that some courses could not use riders because of design features such as slopes or edges.
As for cost savings....
2 riders or 6 walking mowers
2 men vs 6 men
no trucksters vs 6 trucksters
and I am sure I missed something

I understand your concern for qualty of cut but some of these new ones are very very close....as AN says, they do need to be set differently but they are close.

Pat,
I am saying that at many courses across the country the main reason some greenchairman began sing walkers was the pattern....I don't tink it is the main reason to use....

I remember selling golf course equipment in the mid 80s. In 1983 Toro estimated that the market for walking mowers across the country was less than 100 machines...and that was for all manufacturers not just them.... That trend reversed because of new courses coming on lne that were watching ANGC....JMO

« **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2006, 08:43:21 AM »

Mike,
I've played on many course who's greens were great and they triplexed. I think that it is also a "feather in the cap"deal because they they believe that they can have higher greens fee. I've even seen a few golf courses that write "our greens are walked mowed" on their scorecards! Of course, then they were triplexed....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2006, 09:34:21 AM »

Around here I have noticed courses going with a combination of the two. Weekdays they walk mow, weekends they triplex...

Personally, if money and time is not an issue, I prefer walkers for all the reasons Don Mahaffey noted.

« **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2006, 03:01:53 AM »

I have always cut my green with hand mowers as I believe the benifits more than cover the costs of extra labour. The new Eplex generation is definitely the way forward. Jim, movable carraige systems increase the weight of the machine signicantly and so are not an issue at the moment but maybe this will change in the future

« **Reply #17 on:** April 11, 2006, 10:08:52 AM »

I will weigh in on the side of triplexes. I believe that three reels on one piece of equipment are easier to keep consistent than 4-5 mowers in the hands of 4-5 different operators. When I was at Oakland hills in the early eighties two of the walk mowers got in trouble for putting bricks in their buckets (to add down pressure) during the club championship.

I have watched a lot of different operators running walkers in many different ways. To do it right you have to support the handlebar in the float position without pressure on either side. Not many operators I have seen do this consistently.

Walkers are also real tough to turn on dew if you have severe sideslopes coming off the green edges. If you lose it while spinning, they have no traction to climb back up the hill onto the green. I wouldn't want to run a walk mower on #2, 8, 9, 15 & 16 here on an everyday basis. Yes they are tough with triplexes, but easier than walkers in the dew.

We walk mow here at Kingsley only for the first couple mowings in the spring in order to help firm up the greens. After that it's triplexes till snow fall.

For me the people management/labor pool issues are the toughest part of this job. If I can do the job with 3 less employees every morning it's a good thing.

I concede the hydraulic leak argument.

Anthony,

Every different kind of mower cuts a little different set at the same HOC. We have Toro, JD and Jake triplexes. All are different. The head weights, rollers and many other variables all contribute to ACTUAL cutting height. It's not just walk vs. ride.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 11, 2006, 11:40:07 AM »

Mr. Lucas,
I understand your comment, but when we're talking about a Toro triplex greensmower with Flex 21 heads on it and Toro Flex 21 walkers, our HOC still has to be .05 LOWER than our walkers to get the same cut. I wasnt comparing Jake to Deere to Toro, but I do know that there is quite a difference between the HOC of the above.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2006, 11:51:06 AM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on April 11, 2006, 11:40:07 AM

Mr. Lucas,
I understand your comment, but when we're talking about a Toro triplex greensmower with Flex 21 heads on it and Toro Flex 21 walkers, our HOC still has to be .05 LOWER than our walkers to get the same cut. I wasnt comparing Jake to Deere to Toro, but I do know that there is quite a difference between the HOC of the above.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Anthony,
I think that .05 difference is caused by the attitude of the bedknife difference between the two mowers. Two mowers can be set at same height and a different attitude will make them cut different. It has been that way with Jake and Toro for years. And from what I have seen with the flex 21 we are using now....the mech says that is the difference....
Mike

« **Reply #20 on:** April 11, 2006, 12:08:34 PM »

Mr. Young,
I know what you're talking about and we've wondered that in the past, but all our machines are less than 1 year old, used almost everyday and our bedknives and reels are adjusted and tighten everyday. We can really tell when the pitch is getting bad when we walk mow our tees, zoysia in particular because of the tougher, fatter blades.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #21 on:** April 11, 2006, 12:36:16 PM »

Tony,

.05" isn't better or worse. It's just different. By a tiny bit, I might add....

Joe

p.s. I'm already a full time BB, but I may as well add that I agree with both Don and Dan. They each state their case, and each has made the correct decision for their situations. Signs of intelligence and maturity.....they're both old.

« **Reply #22 on:** April 11, 2006, 01:43:02 PM »

Anthony

When you walk mow, you are also rolling the green. The drum on the walker, with the full weight of the machine on it, makes a big difference. Doesn't change the effective HOC, but helps speed.
As long as your greens roll the way you want them to and the grass is healthy it doesn't really matter what your mowers are bench set at.

By the way, I'm Dan not Mr. Lucas.

Joe

Yes we are old but we're not Grandpa's.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2006, 04:36:57 PM »

Dan....that was weird!

I agree with you and beleive that both mowers can and do provide great putting surfaces. When I played by you, I thought the greens were great and remember being surprised because they were triplexed (I've learned alot in 2 years) My father and Jeff T-plex at Railside and have always thought that they have very good putting surfaces...it really boils down to labor and membership demands, don't you think?
Joe-I know it's not alot, but .05 when you're already below .100 seems like alot-The lower the better cause it helps the bermuda transition better! I never thought I'd be happy to see he cool season go!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2006, 04:48:27 PM »

I will weigh in on this issue because.......I can't help myself. Walk mowing is overrated. I would rather have my HOC adjustment in the hands of my mechanic than in the hands of the guy mowing the green. I have watched guys walk mow and time and time again, the mower moves up and down over and over again every time the guy takes a step. Sure, this can be trained out, I guess, but how long does that take, and how long is that guy going to be with me and why should I pay a premium for that? I walk mow cleanups 3 times a week, max.

Steve

News:

Mike_Young

RJ_Daley

Ryan Farrow

Mike_Young

Don_Mahaffey

Steve Curry

W.H. Cosgrove

Mike_Young

Jim Thompson

Don_Mahaffey

Troy Alderson

Patrick_Mucci

Anthony_Nysse

Mike_Young

Anthony_Nysse

Craig Sweet

Jon Wiggett

Dan_Lucas

Anthony_Nysse

Mike_Young

Anthony_Nysse

Joe Hancock

Dan_Lucas

Anthony_Nysse

S. Huffstutler