MacKenzie's Dream 18

« **on:** March 30, 2006, 09:30:42 PM »

In the Sports Illustrated Golf Plus Masters preview, there is a piece listing A. MacKenzies best 18 holes. The list was compiled by Geoff Shackelford.

List of holes:

First at Pasa
Sixth at Michigan
Fourth at Royal Melbourne
15th at Kingston Heath
Country Life Winning hole
Tenth at Royal Melbourne
Sixth at Royal Melbourne
Tenth at Moortown
Third at Royal Adelaide
Fifth at Crystal Downs
Eighth at Crystal Downs
Ninth at Cypress
16th at Cypress
14th at Pasa
18th at Sitwell Park
Third at Valley Club
12 and 13 at Augusta

Course plays to a par of 71 and a yardage of 6225

« **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2006, 09:59:16 PM »

I've always believed these compilations should be true to the hole number on the course.

« **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2006, 10:34:21 PM »

I'll take 16th at Valley over 14th at Pasa. But why not 16th at Pasa, MacKenzie's self-professed favorite par 4?

« **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2006, 12:17:08 AM »

Andrew,

So if a course switches its nines then everyone's lists need to be redone? Do you use the hole numbers as it was originally designed, as it is played for normal play, or as it is played for tournament play (i.e., if they reverse the nines or do a composite course)

« **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2006, 07:15:48 AM »

I find it hard to argue with any of those choices.

Such lists are much easier when you throw out the hole numbers.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2006, 07:19:01 AM »

The choice of the 1st at Pasa is a joke. The DrMack/FBD 1st at Pitreavie is Sooooooooooo much better (pace Matt Ward....). You'd think that nobody on that panel had ever been to Dunfermline!

« **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2006, 07:29:35 AM »

Modesty prevents me....

Tahnks, Rihc,
Sitting, as I am, in Dunfermline as I type these words, I am not even a mile away from the faded dowager herself.
I can think of at least two or three holes there, which could easily stand proud with the 1st at Pasa too.
I much preferred the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th at Pasa (before rain stopped play - for all but BillV!)

FBD.

« **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2006, 08:08:26 AM »

I wonder if the 1st at Pasa playing as a Par 5 or Par 4 in this exercise.

« **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2006, 10:03:53 AM »

You chaps need to read the article before you start tearing the list apart. Geoff's purpose was to formulate this as a viable playable golf course, and in fact there's a very cool routing plan / drawing in the magazine. So sure, we can ask why not this, why that, but you have to consider it in an overall context.

I can see a lot of "why nots" when it comes to individual golf holes... it's hard to argue against the overall course though. Man it seems great. How cool is a finisher of 13 Augusta?

TH

ps - re #1 Pasa, he drew it as it was in Mac's time... no trees... and in that formulation, well... I've never been to Dumferline, but it's hard to believe that hole (as I've seen it described) works better for this overall course.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2006, 10:38:14 AM »

Huckaby is right, it is supposed to be a fun course and the routing map is very cool. There are some interesting nuggets and opinions about each hole by Mike Hurdzan, Michael Clayton, and some guy named Doak.

« **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2006, 11:36:45 AM »

You think it will be posted on the web somewhere for those of us who do not get SI?

« **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2006, 12:00:17 PM »

Tom Doak,
I hope you like the list...you inspired nearly all of the final choices! Thanks again for your help, I'll be sending a few copies as soon as I get them.

The concept was the idea of SI Golf Plus editor Jim Herre, who wanted to salute the architects of the major venues in a different way. So we called on a few experts to suggest a "dream course," not necessarily his 18 very best, but the ones the Doctor might put together to best exemplify his philosophy.

Of course, he'd probably remind us that he himself dubbed #16 at Pasatiempo a favorite, but not one panelist voted for it!

There will be similar Dream 18's of Tillinghast for the U.S. Open issue, Colt for the British Open issue and Arnold Palmer will be doing his own 18 for the Ryder Cup issue.

« **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2006, 02:04:15 PM »

A quick and enjoyable exercise is to make a second 18 with the holes not used in the first.

Goes to show just how tough a job Geoff Shack had, and just how many good holes MacKenzie designed.

FYI the second list could include -

2 ANGC
3 Royal Melbourne West
4 Royal Adelaide
5 Royal Melbourne West

and finishes strong with a fantastic back 9

10 Pasatiempo
11 Pasatiempo
12 ANGC
13 New South Wales
14 New South Wales
15 Cypress Point
16 Pasatiempo
17 Royal Melbourne West
18 Royal Melbourne West

MM

« **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2006, 02:26:34 PM »

Geoff,

Will the list be posted on your website sometime?

« **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2006, 03:06:38 PM »

Geoff -

Great job.

Since RM has more holes (3) than any other course on the first 18 (a little odd since this was done for the SI Masters issue) and has already been given 3 more on the second 18, how 'bout we take a few more from ANGC, to wit:

3rd
5th
8th
14th

Bob

« **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2006, 03:13:58 PM »

I cant believe that the 16th at CPC hasnt been mentioned more...

Isnt that supposed to be the greatest hole in the world?

« **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2006, 03:46:17 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 31, 2006, 03:13:58 PM

I cant believe that the 16th at CPC hasnt been mentioned more...

Isnt that supposed to be the greatest hole in the world?

Jordan - it's in there - check again. No way could this ever be left out of any MacKenzie compilation.

« **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2006, 03:48:24 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 31, 2006, 03:13:58 PM

I cant believe that the 16th at CPC hasnt been mentioned more...ie hasnt been talked about much...apologies for the misunderstanding[/color]...

Isnt that supposed to be the greatest hole in the world?

« **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:02:04 PM »

Jordan - every hole on the list is great, although it would be an interesting conversation for people to state their favorites. And 16 CPC has been discussed, dissected, reviewed, you add another word, in this forum more than just about any hole on the planet.

Not sure what you're looking for here, my friend!

TH

« **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:25:37 PM »

Geoff - it is a nice article.

I'm Giddy with anticipation...
Mac - Tillie - Colt - Palmer

« **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:27:45 PM »

Mike:

Why do the words of a Sesame Street song keep coming to mind?

One of these things is not like the other
which one is different, do you know
tell me which of these things is
not like the other
and I'll tell you if it is so.

Oh well. I don't usually classify things by architect - no offense.

But after the first three, won't the last one be, uh... different?

TH

« **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:43:29 PM »

A certain US East Coast chum of mine e-mailed the pages in question to me. No names, no pack drill. Capisce?

Firstly - glorious Gil H rendering. Very pretty, Gil!

If we could find suitable terrain, this would easily be the finest golf course in the world! What? Mack's best holes pulled together - why, it surprises me that it's never been thought of before! Maybe it has!

I know that I would pay good money for a tee-time.

I do have a wee issue that NO scottish holes were involved. Okay, IMNSHO, Pitreavie certainly has some justification, but Blairgowrie really ought to be considered too. Maybe the authors were pandering to their US market. Although, of course, that's never happened before...

FBD.

« **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2006, 03:38:43 PM »

I just saw this over the weekend and really enjoyed it. Pretty interesting that you could come up with such a great course at 6200 yards.

I have only played two of the courses included in the list. I was a little surprised that 14 at Pasatiempo was included. I had to think hard to figure out which hole that was, despite having played the course 3 times. I didn't remember the hole as real memorable, other than always being in the hollows on the left. I'll have to pay more attention when I get there again someday.

I look forward to the coming lists.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2006, 03:44:16 PM »

If one were to rank the par fours on the back nine at Pasa, it would likely go 11, 16, 10, 14, 12, 17. So yes, it's hard to believe a hole that's the 4th best on its nine makes this list.

But then one remembers that the idea here wasn't to list MacKenzie's 18 best holes so much as it was to come up with a complete GOLF COURSE consisting of 18 great Mackenzie holes... a course that works, fits together, would be fun to play, and that could be drawn as a coherent routing.

With that in mind, 14 works quite nicely. And I find it to be a very unsung golf hole... that is, 11 and 16 get all the press and all the photos, but 14's the one that continually has one scratching his head upon repeated play. I've played it probably 30+ times and I've yet to decide on the best play.

The use of those hollows is freakin' genius.

TH

« **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2006, 04:58:03 PM »

Only Martin's picked up on the coolest piece of this feature: Gil Hanse's course routing map. What a brilliant rendering, piecing all of those great holes together as a seamless 18-hole layout.

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