[Matt_Ward]

For those who wish to participate the Jersey Golfer magazine will be updating our top 50 overall courses in New Jersey and a separate top 25 among the best public layouts. We have been doing a bi-annual assessment of golf courses in the state for well over a decade.

These articles will not appear until later this year but I wanted to reach out to those who have and do play frequently in the state to provide their thoughts / opinions.

I leave the criteria open, however, would only ask you to rate those courses you have played. In many cases it's fair to say that those responding will not be able to provide an assessment beyond a certain limited number. That's fine.

I only ask that those who do respond indicate the last time you played the course because it helps in understanding one's comments because when a course is played really does put matters in perspective.

You can forward your tallies / comments via IM thru GCA.

Many thanks ...

matt

P.S. Deadline for all items is no later than the end of May.

[TEPaul]

Sure, I'd be very happy to offer my input and opinion.

It is;

If Hidden Creek is not in the top five in the state of New Jersey your list and your magazine will be the laughing stock of the entire world of golf course architecture for the rest of time.  

If it isn't in the top five in the state of New Jersey on the list in your magazine don't say I didn't give you fair warning.  

1. PVGC
2. Somerset Hills
3. Baltusrol
4. Hidden Creek
5. Stone Harbor

There really can be no arguing with that top five in that order--it's a total no-brainer.
However, my suggestion is that Stone Harbor consider restoring that course to its original architectural glory pretty damned soon or the course will risk slipping to 6th or below in New Jersey.

I realize I may be somewhat in the minority in saying this but personally I've always felt Merion belongs in the top 8 in New Jersey. You may also want to put Atlantic City in your top twelve for the simple reason the way things are going over there you may not get the change again.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Do the ratings turn into a popularity contest a la GD's Places to Play with owners of public courses stuffing the ballots?

Are the ratings divided into Public and Private?

Is there a Best New category?

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I am simply looking for feedback. Internally, we at Jersey Golfer always review all of the likely candidates but given the intensity that people feel about architecture on this site I wanted to see what were some of the comments. The final poll is done internally given our familiarity with all the layouts throughout the state. Call it a straw poll if you like.

We have an overall top 50 for the state -- a top 25 separate poll for the best public. There is no "best new" because the state doesn't produce a wide range of candidates.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Speaking of Best New in NJ, what is the construction status of the Pete Dye course near Manahwkin?

Steve

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - send away!  If you are interested I'd be happy to participate.  JC

[wsmorrison]

"The final poll is done internally given our familiarity with all the layouts throughout the state. Call it a straw poll if you like."

This process sounds like it doesn't need any outside participants.  Are you telling me the same internal committee can't come up with a proper pool of courses to rank?  What it seems like you are really doing is having a small group within the magazine make the rankings and pass it off as a ranking based on readership participation.  You already have granted yourselves more capable of a ranking given your lofty self-evaluation of familiarity with all the layouts.  If you don't give your readership credit for being familiar enough with the state sampling, why don't you just tell them you know more than they do so pay attention to your list and learn from your superior understanding.

[Dan_Callahan]

Wayne,

You'd be shocked by what a true readers survey would reveal. I worked on one of these "Best Of" magazines. In a category of best private course in New England, TPC River Highlands was ranked number 1 by readers. Courses such as Newport, Myopia, and Salem didn't crack the top 10. It is embarassing as an editor to publish such results. I guess that when you live in a country where a majority of people can't even name their senators or governor, it should come as no surprise that votes on the quality of golf courses would be equally uninformed.

[David Panzarasa]

Dan,
 While I agree with what you said, I dont think it comes as any surprise if you really think about it. Keep in mind the majority of golfers out there are not people that are on here or would ever want to be on here. They are not looking at the course as most people on GCA do, and that might be a good thing or not. But, they could care less about angles, routing, or any of that stuff. Do you honestly think (NJ for example) that the majority of people would join Plainfield CC or Pine Valley because of the design, the angles, the routing, the green and sand structures? NO, it is because of the name, and that is why there is a long list to get in each one. People dont know about architecture at all, they like certain things and dont like certain things. I would bet that courses fall off the list because certain people that voted and played a course did not like the service from the waitress or their food sucked. 99.9999% of the people out there if you voted are not looking at the same criteria as you or I and should not be expected to.

[David Panzarasa]

Tepaul,
 I dont post here a ton, I have been on here for a long time though, I think your statement is kind of funny and just arrogant. Why would anyone on earth thing that Matt's list would be laughed at if it does not have those 5 courses in the top 5? Because you say so? What if people like Hollywood, ridgewood, montclair, Galloway, Trump (not me), and some others? I personally would not have S.H on my top 5  list, not saying anything is wrong with the course but it is not better then Hollywood or Ridgewood to me, so my list would be a joke then? I would think a nice amount of people would think your list is off by your top 5. just an opinion though.
 

[wsmorrison]

 Dan,

I think there's a lot of merit in what you say.  But why have a magazine put out a request for ranking golf courses, not use it except to create a pool of golf courses for consideration (which is likely predetermined by the internal staff anyway) and then use an internal poll to create the list?  It sounds like marketing pure and simple with an improper methodology creating a list that is not representative of the readership but merely that of the internal staff.  It seeminly misrepresents the process and establishes a we know more than they do so we'll just do it approach.

David,

Tom was just being funny and and satirizing rankings.  There's little chance he would ever bother with a serious ranking. I certainly believe it is a waste of time.  As Matt himself demonstrated in the case of his magazine it is not a scientific process at all and because of the sampling it could hardly be meaningful.

[Robert Thompson]

Interesting Wayne. One Ontario publication that I participate in as a rater tallies the results using an accounting firm and prints the top five for all 50 participants in the publication. Doesn't guarantee that anyone will be totally happy with the results -- but you get a clear view of how raters think. Some leave me shaking my head, but the process is transparent. More publications should consider it as a model....

[Joel_Stewart]

1. PVGC
2. Somerset Hills
3. Baltusrol
4. Hidden Creek
5. Stone Harbor
There really can be no arguing with that top five in that order--it's a total no-brainer.

Tom:

Which course at Baltusrol?   Regardless I don't think Baltusrol deserves top 5 in New Jersey and would argue that if it was it be 5th although I haven't played Hidden Creek or Stone Harbor.  I personally think Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Ridgewood should be considered in that 3-7 area.

I just don't see any redeeming architectural factors in Baltusrol and am surprised you rank it so high.  

[TEPaul]

DavidP:

Yes, I guess my post sure could be considered arrogant---that is for those who actually take it seriously.  

[TEPaul]

Joel:

How could I have forgotten Plainfield? What could I have been thinking?

I think Somerset Hills and Plainfield should both be ranked #2. Not even #2a and #2b-----just put them both at #2 where they belong. Actually, I have an even better idea. The list should not just use numbers but spaces too to show comparability. It should look something like this;

1. Pine Valley










2. Somerset Hills and Plainfield
3. Hidden Creek



4. Baltusrol (Lower or Upper---take your pick)




5a. Stone Harbor (restored to original)











5b. Stone Harbor (unrestored)

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Steve:

I am simply looking for feedback. Internally, we at Jersey Golfer always review all of the likely candidates but given the intensity that people feel about architecture on this site I wanted to see what were some of the comments. The final poll is done internally given our familiarity with all the layouts throughout the state. Call it a straw poll if you like.

We have an overall top 50 for the state -- a top 25 separate poll for the best public. There is no "best new" because the state doesn't produce a wide range of candidates.

Matt-  

  So what's the point behind having this at all?  From your comments above, this process seems like the magazine already has the candidates/results decided; having people (us)send in ratings is a waste of their/our time, and your time.  

  Am I correct in saying this?  

  Jersey Golfer Magazine could do a little better for New Jersey golfers, no?  I would wonder about the credibility of the magazine as an information source going forth.  
 
 

 

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: To me the interesting question is which of the modern courses are the best and in what order.  Clearly PVGC is number one of the classical and then we get in the usual debate between the rest which are very hard to justify as being better than the others.  I'm a big fan of Plainfield and Somerset Hills and not so much a fan of Baltusrol but I can't objectively point to a reason why one is better than the others.

The modern courses is a more interesting challenge.  Trump National is as good as it gets if you leave out your feelings toward the Donald. Galloway is also great with some great greens but the routing is forced.  Hidden Creek is a great example of minimalist design that you don't have to have loads of eye candy to build a great course.  Personally, I probably would put TN number 1, HC number 2 and GN number 3 - but if the order was changed I would have no problem.  

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

My understanding is that Pete Dye's Eagle's Lake Reserve is only now fully permitted. I believe ground breaking is slated for sometime this summer.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Thanks for the info. I have lost contact with the developer. I remember speaking to him about 3-4 years ago about permits, etc. I told him NJ is not easy to deal with on these issues. I hope the project is still a go in light of market conditions.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You should make note of the desire to add another layout to the portfolio of courses in the Crystal Springs area. I understand that work is moving ahead for some sort of ground breaking this season.

We may also add a section on the restored / upgraded courses in the state given the number of layouts that have gone through this process.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve, Doug, Dan, et al:

Where the assistance is truly needed is on the public side of the ledger. The private ones don't provide easy access, if any at all, and the public does learn a good bit more on where the better places they can access.

Thanks ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Before I send in my reply on the public side, I will try to play Neshanic Valley after I return from my AZ trip. I know which course will be #1 but the others are there on my list although I'd like to make it upstate to play The Knoll as well.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

We don't rate according to the system used by Golfweek. The categories -- the 50 best overall (private & public combined) and the top 25 public.

Doug:

Nothing has been decided yet. The people being asked through GCA clearly have much more of an interest in architecture than the average Joe and getting their comments can be most helpful in the event anything has been overlooked or not fully appreciated.

If you feel such an effort is a waste of your time simply do not participate -- simple as that.

In regards to the credibility I think the people associated with the magazine have a standing beyond that of any regular observer of the golf scene in the state. We don't print advertorial linkages that sway the final results. It is simply pure golf and nothing more.

Getting feedback from informed sources is always welcomed and appreciated.

Wayne:

Glad you can contribute your 2 cents worth.

The request is being made of people who have an active interest in architecture and likely have a good knowledge base of Jersey golf courses.

Allow me to clue you in -- no magazine can have a pure scientific bent on such a subjective matter. However, the people who provide their comments via their GCA involvement likely have a better sense on what are the best golf courses in the state. This information is very valuable and is used.

One other thing -- our "internal staff" has a knowledge of Jersey golf no other group can match -- let alone surpass. All of the key courses are monitored including those that are new or have gone through extensive upgrades, modifications, etc, etc. Of course -- how would you know -- you're too busy throwing forward another bomblast / putdown.

Last point -- the ratings Jersey Golfer produces have no connection to any facility advertising or having any sort of commercial tie. I can tell you that plenty of others do.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne:

Glad you can contribute your 2 cents worth."

I value my comments as far greater than 2 cents.  Seems to me that your experiences in valueing thousands of comments should have given you the ability to understand the comments better.  I guess sheer numbers do not yield expertise, much the same as your golf architecture analysis.

"Allow me to clue you in -- no magazine can have a pure scientific bent on such a subjective matter. However, the people who provide their comments via their GCA involvement likely have a better sense on what are the best golf courses in the state. This information is very valuable and is used."

If the information is very valuable and is used, why do you yourself state that the real rankings are done internally and that the readership input is a straw poll to gather candidates that you already must have acquired or will fudge to your own standards?

"I am simply looking for feedback. Internally, we at Jersey Golfer always review all of the likely candidates but given the intensity that people feel about architecture on this site I wanted to see what were some of the comments. The final poll is done internally given our familiarity with all the layouts throughout the state. Call it a straw poll if you like."

And don't worry, you don't have to clue me in about anything.  You and your concepts are transparent and require little analytical process.  You pretend to value your readership's opinions yet the real rankings are done internally.  It is completely consistant with your oft-cited views that your experiences subordinate the opinions of others and only you and your colleagues have the breadth of experience to provide a ranking.  Never mind that rankings are stupid and a waste of time for all but the magazine publisher and advertisers.


"One other thing -- our "internal staff" has a knowledge of Jersey golf no other group can match -- let alone surpass."

Stop with the internal New Jersey Golfer circle-jerk already.

"All of the key courses are monitored including those that are new or have gone through extensive upgrades, modifications, etc, etc. Of course -- how would you know -- you're too busy throwing forward another bomblast / putdown. "

Stop being such a condescending dope and there won't be any fodder to blast your ridiculous opinions of yourself and otherwise.  Hey, at least you stopped using the term "pardner!"

[Michael Whitaker]

"We don't print advertorial linkages that sway the final results."

"Last point -- the ratings Jersey Golfer produces have no connection to any facility advertising or having any sort of commercial tie. I can tell you that plenty of others do."

OK, Matt, you opened the door...

Which publications do you think adjust their rankings based on advertising support?

Which publications print "advertorial linkages that sway the final results?"

Name names.

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