Banff advice

« **on:** March 18, 2006, 02:33:03 PM »

I am thinking about trying to make the trip to play Banff Springs and Jasper Park at the end of May. Unfortunately, I will have to squeeze it into 3-4 days between Memorial Day weekend and the opening of our Tumble Creek course in Washington.

For those who have made the trip, a couple of questions:

1. Am I going too early? I don't really care much about the conditions, but I did play Cape Breton Highlands so early in the spring that there were temporary greens, and my photos aren't much because the trees weren't leafed out yet.

2. If you could only play three rounds total, is one of the other courses in the area worth playing, or would you play the third round at Jasper or Banff?

Thanks for the advice.

« **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2006, 04:03:44 PM »

Tom,
I haven't been up there yet. I would be interested to hear what you think of the courses. How much of Thompson's work have you seen?

« **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2006, 04:57:07 PM »

Jasper is quite a bit behind banff due to elevation. So my answers are for Jasper.

1. Am I going too early? I played at Jasper on the 24th of May.....it snowed during the round. Your not too early, but the weather can be anything that time of year I don't really care much about the conditions good because it's unlikely that the conditions will be good before June at Jasper , but I did play Cape Breton Highlands so early in the spring that there were temporary greens I wouldn't expect that, Perry's a great super, and my photos aren't much because the trees weren't leafed out yet.

2. If you could only play three rounds total, is one of the other courses in the area worth playing, or would you play the third round at Jasper or Banff? Definately no other course in the same league, although I would suggest you go to Morraine Lake, Johnson canyon and Lake Louise (even Emerald lake in Yoho acros the divide) rather than play a third round. I love golf, but the scenery in that area is unparalleled - make sure you see it all.

« **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2006, 05:23:59 PM »

Ian: Thanks for that advice. I saw Cape Breton back in 1989 or 1990, so probably no reflection on the current greenkeeper, but there were 4 temporary greens that spring.

Ed: I've seen only a smattering of Thompson's work, but a well-chosen smattering: Cape Breton Highlands, Capilano, St. George's, Chagrin Valley, "Old Ashburn" at Halifax, Digby Pines, Ladies' GC of Toronto, and Uplands.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2006, 05:38:59 PM »

Tom,

Jasper is a personal favorite, so I would definitely recommend playing there. This may sound sacriligous but despite the 4th hole ( 'Devil's Cauldron') I would pass on Banff and consider either Silver Tip or Stewarts Creek in Canmore twenty minutes away.

Aidan.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2006, 05:48:23 PM »

Tom,

Blackhawk GC is not too far from Jasper... if you could swing flying out of or into Edmonton, it would be worth the trip.

« **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2006, 06:29:54 PM »

Quote from: Aidan Bradley on March 18, 2006, 05:38:59 PM

Tom,

This may sound sacriligous but despite the 4th hole ( 'Devil's Cauldron') I would pass on Banff and consider either Silver Tip or Stewarts Creek in Canmore twenty minutes away.

Aidan.

Aiden,

No, I would say that sacriligous is not nearly strong enough.

Banff is a truely memeorable course with no weak holes and several which merit All World ranking.

« **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2006, 07:12:25 PM »

Pete,

Your comments are fare and I cannot dissagree. However, I made my remarks based on a different set of values than purely the architectural design merits of the course.

When you are in such a heavenly place, I have a hard time wondering why someone placed a bunker in a particular spot instead of marvelling at the sheer beauty of my surrounding environment.

I am often asked what I think makes a great hole, or golf course. For me, when I can stand on the tee box, look all around and say, my God, I am lucky to be alive.

This stream of thinking may not be in line with the general consensus of the average GCA member but I am a golfer first, a photographer second, and I leave design to people far more talented than I.

Aidan.

« **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2006, 08:31:21 PM »

Aiden,

You're certainly entitled to your opinion; I can't comment on Silver Tip or Stewart's Creek because I haven't seen either one.

One of the unique features of Banff is the close proximity to the surrounding mountains. The ball literally soars towards the steep backdrops; a very exhilerating feeling indeed. Perhaps this "too close " perspective dissagrees your artistic eye?

Jasper on the other hand hand has the mountains much farther in the distance; but their presense is still one of the most unforgettable features of the course.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2006, 09:22:41 PM »

Tom,

According to theweathermetwork.com, the average high in both places is about the same...14 or 15 degrees (Celsius) in May, and 19 or 20 degrees in June. Comfortable weather, but Ian's right...at that time of year, you could get ANYTHING for weather! I was hiking years ago on the B.C.-Alberta border in mid-July, and we got 3 feet of snow overnight, and a week later Edmonton got flooded from all of the snowmelt out of the mountains.

Not sure it's possible for you, but I would highly recommend early-mid September instead...much nicer time of year to play. The courses would be in much better shape at that time of year. Nights are a bit chilly, but the days are gorgeous, with warm weather, and some beautiful scenery.

If you wanted to play at another course "in the area", I would strongly suggest "Stewart Creek", just south of the town of Canmore, which is just east of the Banff National Park east gate. It's about a 15-minute drive from Banff townsite. I played there last August, and it's a beautiful course, cleverly designed into the side of a mountain [and incorporating old mining features, such as shaft entrances, etc...in fact, one is visible in the top photo below...between the two fairway bunkers] by Gary Browning of Calgary, Alberta, who is also building another course for that area, which will become the new public course there and Stewart Creek will become private in another year or two.

A couple of pics are below, from last August...top photo is the view from the 1st tee, and the bottom photo is a bit later on the front nine.

JJ

« **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2006, 10:17:51 PM »

Tom, Canadian GCAers Rob Thompson and Lorne can offer you deep insight on the issue, but for my 2 cents, I'd see Banff (which a close buddy who knows golf likes) for two reasons...first just to see it and see if there were anything unique interesting things there, 2) its reputed to be quite a restorative elixer, if nothing else.

« **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2006, 11:09:48 PM »

Quote from: Aidan Bradley on March 18, 2006, 05:38:59 PM

Tom,

Jasper is a personal favorite, so I would definitely recommend playing there. This may sound sacriligous but despite the 4th hole ( 'Devil's Cauldron') I would pass on Banff and consider either Silver Tip or Stewarts Creek in Canmore twenty minutes away.

Aidan.

Aidan:

Please take this the way it is intended -- anyone who would suggest one go to see the badly routed and in spots just gawd awful Silver Tip over Banff is clearly under the influence of some sort of hallucinogenic. To say Silver Tip isn't in Banff's league is understating just how far apart they are. They aren't on the same planet. I like Les Furber as a person, but Silver Tip is really bad architecture -- a cart course where you play down a hill, drive up to the next hill and play down again. In one spot there is a 4 minute cart ride between holes. Just really, really bad. I hear Stewart Creek is better, but it isn't in the league of Banff or Jasper. Not even close, especially if you are actually looking to study golf architecture and some of Thompson's most staggering work.

Tom: You might consider flying into Edmonton, playing Rod's Blackhawk, which is really quite strong, and making the three hour drive to Jasper. Then drive through the mountains to Banff and leave via Calgary, which is about an hour away. That's how I did it. As mentioned in my note, I'd be delighted to introduce you to my friend who runs the course at Jasper.

« **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:09:09 AM »

Tom,
A second round at Banff or Jasper is best. Stewart Creek is a good option without much extra car travel. If you decide to go to BC, Copper Point near Windermere is better golf than Silvertip. http://www.copperpointgolf.com/

Stewart Creek design attacks the mountainside horizontally rather than vertically. It is solid, but I liked Copper Point better because of more variety, architect used more of the palette and was fun to play. First few holes were mundane, but afte that it kept up my interest. The 10th green site is a ringer for par 5 at Oak Tree with the small raised green (4?)

« **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2006, 11:08:58 AM »

Anyone have details about Kananaskis? I have never been, but my wife's cousins swear by it for its beauty and reasonable price.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2006, 11:13:08 AM »

Robert: Is that really doable in three days?

« **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2006, 11:52:38 AM »

Three days. My suggestion to get the most out of the trip.
Fly in and out of Calgary (the drive from Edmonton is long and dull).
1. Drive to Banff and play that day. Go to Morraine Lake and Johnson Canyon in the morning or afternoon depening on tee time.
2. Drive from Banff to Jasper in the morning (4 hours - best drive in Canada!) play Jasper that afternoon -should be warmer too.
3. Drive back from Jasper that morning and STOP this time to hit some of the trails Peyto Lake, Columbia Ice Fields, the 4 major waterfalls (all near the road). Stop at Lake Loise on the way back too. Head back to Calgary.

Don't miss out on the scenery Tom, it's one of the most beautiful places on earth. Of note: I think you could play 36 on both in three days. Add one day and it all works much easier.

« **Reply #16 on:** March 19, 2006, 12:19:27 PM »

I would follow Ian's advice almost exactly for a three day trip. I would try to play Jasper twice,as it it one of those courses that is fun to play 36 at. Not too demanding, and a second viewing can really open your eyes. Of course, YOU can probably get it in one viewing.

Silver Tip is only worthwhile if you take a cart and a camera and don't bring your clubs. There is a hole on the back (10? 11 maybe ) that is one of the worst I've seen on the planet..

« **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2006, 05:33:17 PM »

Tom
Not to be bias to Ian's advice but being from Alberta, I would suggest flying into Edmonton in the AM and play Blackhawk(15 minutes from the airport) and after the round, head to Jasper(3 hours away). You could play Jasper and Banff at your leisure, then drop your vehicle off in Calgary.
This way you play 3 great courses and experience one of the best drives ever.......Edmonton-Jasper-Banff-Calgary
Duane
(super)Blackhawk

« **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2006, 05:44:14 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on March 19, 2006, 11:13:08 AM

Robert: Is that really doable in three days?

Tom: I did it that way. Flew into Edmonton. Played Blackhawk. Had dinner. Drove to Jasper (3 hours). Played 36. Drove to Banff (3 hours). Played there. Did the hour to Calgary. So yes, it is doable -- and you could go either way -- from Calgary, ending in Edmonton, or vice versa. I had limited time and wanted to see both Blackhawk and Jasper, so that's how I did it.
A bit of a haul, but not outlandish. And the drive from Banff to Jasper is great, as Ian wisely notes.

« **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2006, 05:45:44 PM »

Quote from: Sean Leary on March 19, 2006, 12:19:27 PM

Silver Tip is only worthwhile if you take a cart and a camera and don't bring your clubs. There is a hole on the back (10? 11 maybe ) that is one of the worst I've seen on the planet..

Sean: So bad they blew it up and significantly altered it in 2004....

« **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2006, 10:26:40 PM »

Yeah, because people were getting killed on the porch of their condos that lined the left side of the fairway. Three out of four heroes’s (me included) tried to drive the green and usually ended up pulling it left into someone's barbeque. I played with three British tank commanders training at CFB Suffield - which turns out to be one of the world's largest armored training facilities jointly used by British, US, and Canadian Special Forces. These chaps were out for a good time and despite their somewhat debatable golf course etiquette I came away with numerous great stories and a better appreciation for the humanity behind the headlines of war.

« **Reply #21 on:** March 20, 2006, 12:27:38 AM »

A couple of pics below of "Copper Point" that Peter is referring to. A fairly new course, it just opened two or three years ago I think. Golfed there last summer...a really interesting course, on a nice piece of property. Nice movement on a lot of the fairways (see below), with some good bunkering. The course is just south of Radium Hot Springs, B.C....about an hour and a half drive west of Banff townsite, if you ever want to head out that way.

Robert's probably right though. Fly into Edmonton, play "Blackhawk", drive west to Jasper and golf there (in the aftenoon), then drive the beautiful Icefields Parkway (Highway 93) between Jasper and Banff, golf at "Banff Springs" (in the afternoon), and then head into Calgary (about an hour and a half drive).

Ian's right, the scenery is out of this world. Get in some sightseeing in the mornings before golfing in the afternoons. And definitely stop along the way between Jasper and Banff.

JJ

« **Reply #22 on:** March 20, 2006, 03:24:13 AM »

Tom, I'd kill for a second look at Jasper. So much variety.

I'd try like heck to sneak-on early starting at #15 on Banff. At Minimum, just walk those current closing holes, from the hotel to the new clubhouse. That way, you wont be missing too much. The gain from finishing after the current 14th outweighs any loss. Do not park at the current clubhouse and it's an easy decision.

« **Reply #23 on:** March 20, 2006, 03:36:43 AM »

Best advice about Banff.....

Keep your head up!

The golf is good, but god's eye candy is all-world.......

« **Reply #24 on:** March 20, 2006, 07:05:24 AM »

Whatever you may end up thinking of them, these are two of the most famous and romantic courses in the history of golf, and I think it is wise to let the atmosphere and history soak into you a bit (let alone the design features). They also, surely, have to be considered in their context as two of the very earliest, and successful examples of high end resort courses, given how prevalent that sort of architectural commission is today. Has any first hole at any hotel/resort built since surpassed that of the original opener at Banff (now, alas, the 15th)? The feeling you get, wandering out the back of the Banff Springs, seeing that hole for the first time, is electric.

I'm sure many of the other courses are worthy new kids on the block, but these two golfing monuments are not that close together (probably the most distant natural golf "pairing" on the planet) and to make a diversion would be, in my view, like taking time off to play Adare Manor on a 3-day trip to play Ballybunion and Lahinch for the first time.

Full disclosure - my only ace came on the 10th hole at Banff, so I may be just a wee bit biased

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