Alps hole

« **on:** March 17, 2006, 04:59:04 PM »

I ask the Treehouse:

What distinguishes this type of hole? The 3rd at NGLA is an Alps, correct? What, in your opinion, is the best example of an Alps? Where is the original hole?

I am trying to compile information to complete an article on the different types of golf holes including templates.

« **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:02:05 PM »

The Old 10th at Merion is the epitome of the perfect Alps hole. The original at Prestwick and all the copies pale in comparison.

For anyone who does not know me, relax, I am kidding.

Here is a link to an old article by MacDonald regarding the NGLA Alps Hole and the original.

http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi3i.pdf#xml=http://www.aafla.org:8080/verity_templates/jsp/search/xmlread.jsp?k2dockey=/mnt/docs/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi3i.pdf@aafla_pdf&serverSpec=localhost:9900&querytext=

« **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:04:49 PM »

Would 15(I think it's 15) at Palmetto GC qualify as an alps hole?

« **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:08:44 PM »

According to the great book Classic Golf Hole Design by Graves and Cornish, the archetype is #17 at Prestwick.

The others mentioned as true classics are:

NGLA 3
Tamarack CC 6
The Links (NLE) 2
Oakland GC (NLE) 5
Hoylake 11
Magnolia Creek GL South 2
Black Creek 6

Then about 50 others are listed in the Epilogue as examples of the design feature.

As for moi, of the classics I have played only the ones at Prestwick and NGLA and it's tough to say which is better... they're both very unique and very cool. In the end I guess I'll go with NGLA as slightly more fun and interesting, because it adds a diagonal into the mix whereas Prestwick's is straight.

TH

ps - Michael, if you really are doing an article on this, you could do far worse than referring to the book I mentioned... it covers classic golf hole designs VERY thoroughly and VERY well.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:10:36 PM »

Quote from: tommy Williamsen on March 17, 2006, 05:04:49 PM

Would 15(I think it's 15) at Palmetto GC qualify as an alps hole?

Never been there, don't know - but this is not one of the ones listed by G&C, and the list seems very thorough to me.

TH

« **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:14:43 PM »

Tom H. -

I have only played Stevenson Ranch once, but I recall an Alps hole there, about halfway thru the back 9.

DT

« **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:17:48 PM »

David - good call - I'd say that one works. I believe it's #13.

It's not in the C&G book, but another look at that shows I was way too hasty in the previous posts - they only list 15 total, including the classics. So it's tough to say this is a thorough list - my bad!

TH

« **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:31:00 PM »

That wasn't really an Alps hole at Stevinson Ranch, at least as I understand Alps holes, because you could drive to the left and not have to "climb the Alps" with your second shot. That's the key to the Alps, I think, the forced carry over the ridge and hidden bunker to the green beyond. Yale has a beauty, don't remember the hole number, early in the back nine.

The Stevinson Ranch hole was blind if you drove right, wide open from the left. A good hole, maybe the most fun out there.

« **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:38:33 PM »

I'd call the 11th at Reading CC (PA) an Alps hole as well. I wonder if Tom Paul agrees.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2006, 05:41:06 PM »

Bill - you are technically correct, for exactly the reasons you state - gold star for you today.

BUT... given there are so few examples of this type of golf hole, I'd say it's close enough. So how about we call it a "modified Alps"? If you think about it, it's a pretty cool modification, adding a strategic choice element to it.

TH

« **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2006, 06:21:35 PM »

Exactly right, Sr. Huckaby, the lack of strategy defines the Alps, right? Up and over or deep doo doo! You could play the Stevinson Ranch hole as an Alps all day, just keep hitting it wide right!

« **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2006, 06:28:20 PM »

That defines the Alps at Prestwick... but the one at NGLA most definitely allows for strategic choices. Only at NGLA, whichever way you go there is still going to be a bit of up and over.

The one at SR is unique in allowing an avenue that is flat and visible...

Which of course might disqualify it from being an Alps at all, as you say... BUT... it's such a fun hole and such an interesting one, I just don't feel like denigrating it in any way.

« **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2006, 07:47:42 PM »

Bill:
That's #12 at Yale

« **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2006, 08:17:15 PM »

David Moriarty said:

"The Old 10th at Merion is the epitome of the perfect Alps hole. The original at Prestwick and all the copies pale in comparison.

For anyone who does not know me, relax, I am kidding."

David:

You do have a sense of humor. Congratulations, that was a good one---a really good one.

But don't get carried away---get back to the incessant arguing before you start to lose your touch.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2006, 08:23:13 PM »

"I'd call the 11th at Reading CC (PA) an Alps hole as well. I wonder if Tom Paul agrees."

Nope, wrong again Kimmosabe. That thing is nothing more than basically a sort of half rock/half turf ridge-line. How many times am I going to have to explain these things to you? You can tell by looking off to the right and off to the left of it. It's not even close to being an Alp. It may be fairly similar to a Pocono but nothing more than that.

« **Reply #15 on:** March 17, 2006, 10:21:58 PM »

my list in north america would include:

ngla 3

yale 12

fishers island 4th - with a punchbowl green -in my list of top 10 holes of all time

myopia 13th (Hill)-even though it is not referred to as Alps (#10 is) is one of the best imho

the e green hole along the ocean at the sheep ranch - amazing

« **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2006, 12:20:41 AM »

Gerry B beat me to it - #4 at Fishers Island.

Does #9 at The Creek fit the bill, anyone?

Tom: You misspelled "Kemosabe".

« **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2006, 06:11:10 AM »

"Tom: You misspelled "Kemosabe"."

Chip:

I was thinking about that as I typed it and just decided it was inevitable. Do you think I offended Tonto?

« **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2006, 06:23:37 AM »

Actually Chip, you got me thinking---

KEMOSABE?

Hmmm, what do you think the root meanings of that Indian word are---the etymology perhaps? Let me give it a shot--

Kemo=a treatment for cancer, some kind of remediation for disease?

sabe=perhaps some variation of saber (sabir), to know.

remediation for a disease+to know, knowledge, mind etc.

KEMOSABE, Aha, an Indian term for potentially informing idiots and dumb-asses of something they hadn't theretofore figured out.

So, when Tonto called the Lone Ranger Kemosabe all the time he was punctuated whatever he said with---

"Do you think you figured out what I just said to you---you Dumb Pasty-faced F.....?"

« **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2006, 09:00:25 AM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on March 17, 2006, 05:08:44 PM

According to the great book Classic Golf Hole Design by Graves and Cornish, the archetype is #17 at Prestwick.

The others mentioned as true classics are:

NGLA 3
Tamarack CC 6
The Links (NLE) 2
Oakland GC (NLE) 5
Hoylake 11
Magnolia Creek GL South 2
Black Creek 6

Tamarack is Banks I believe. Is anyone familiar with that hole and any other Alps holes designed by Banks? I get the impression Banks was an architect not affraid of pushing the envelope.

I'd be curious to learn, from those in-the-know, what distinguishes a Macdonald Alps from a Raynor Alps from a Banks Alps.

« **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2006, 09:26:22 AM »

One "Alps" feature that was unquestionably discussed and more than very likely planned was the intended "Alps" feature on the far right side of HHA at #7 at Pine Valley.

According to Crump's two best friends in their "Remembrances" that hole was being transitioned into a "double dogleg" par 5 and the "Alps" feature at the far end on the right of HHA was obviously going to be significant strategically, particularly as Crump apparently planned to transition the entire left half of the second half fairway all the way over to the right side of that second half fairway.

The green had already been altered for the "double dog-leg" alteration from what it once was to point directly out to the far right side which never got done and is today woods.

But a lot of all that plan for altering #7 clealy revolved around the "Alps" feature they mentioned at the far right side of HHA.

The documentation for that "double dogleg" transition with the Alps feature on #7 is so strong I think they should just go ahead and finish it now. Not to mention the fact that the green was already altered for this transition just before Crump passed on.

« **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2006, 11:25:03 AM »

Tom:

So does #9 at The Creek qualify?

Pat Mucci and SPDB probably have a thought on that, as well.

Also, I presume you know the joke that ends in the punchline, "what you mean WE, Kemosabe?".

« **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2006, 11:26:18 AM »

chipoat,

Bill Cosby:

Tonto, you go to town.
Kemosabe, you go to hell.

« **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2006, 11:36:24 AM »

"Tom:
So does #9 at The Creek qualify?"

Chip:

I'm sure #9 at Creek qualifies for something but what was it you had in mind?

I'll tell you one thing it qualifies as and that is it's one of only about three holes at The Creek that has just about zero ground game option to its approach. That poses something of a problem since it can play a relative long par 4 for most. Matter of fact it's effectively the only none par 3 that has no ground option approach. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you, particularly seeing as great old courses like Merion and PVGC have about half their holes that offer no ground game approach. But I guess that's why the latter two have always been consider "championship" architecture.

« **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2006, 11:39:19 AM »

Why isn't the 4th at Mid-Ocean mentioned more often as a classic Alps? What am I missing?

Bob

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