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George_Bahto

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NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« on: March 16, 2006, 10:17:09 AM »
Over the past off season the NGLA administration and superintendent Bill Salinetti and company have made this, long discussed, change to 13-Green, the Eden hole.



The putting surface is no in the neighborhood of 17,000 sq feet and looks fantaxtic off the tee.
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mike_malone

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 10:19:08 AM »
George,

  Too cool for words ; I just marvel at the picture and now have another reason to go back.
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AKA Mayday

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2006, 10:26:30 AM »
Glory Hallelujah!!

Mayday - are you saying you needed a reason??

George,
Would you share the ground level images - I believe the one you show is a photoshop mock up by our own T. NACC.

Cheers
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Phil Benedict

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2006, 10:33:18 AM »
At the risk of flaunting my ignorance, could someone describe the playing characteristics of an Eden?  I've played a few (eg 15th at Yale), but I'm not sure what to look for, unlike the other CBM/Raynor par 3's.
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mike_malone

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 10:35:14 AM »
 Mike,

  Since I don't know when or how I can return there , I can replay the course in my head. But, now that they make a change that Mike Sweeney pointed out to me as appropriate I need to go back and play it again. My fantasy replays are no longer realistic.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2006, 10:54:46 AM »
George,

That is way too cool.  It was so obvious that this was the original intent and will add immensely to the dynamics of the hole.
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Bill_McBride

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2006, 10:57:38 AM »
We had an 1800 SF green at Pensacola CC, which will be increased to about 3,000 SF during our current remodeling.  I cannot get my head around a 17,000 SF green.  How big is the 5/13th green on the Old Course?  That may even be bigger, but it's for two holes!
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Dave Bourgeois

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2006, 11:12:02 AM »
How does the newly restored portion (back rt. section of green) slope?  Also were these changes made based on older aerial photos?  

Looks really cool.
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Jim Sweeney

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2006, 11:18:54 AM »
Phil,

I can't answer your question completely, but one aspect of the Eden form is the bunker wrapping around behind the green, symbolizing the beach behind the Eden hole at St. Andrews, #13 I believe (if that's incorrect I'll get Hell here), which backs up to the estuary of the Eden river. I believe the pot bunker in front of the green on the line of play is also characteristic, though it is missing or takes another form on many of the Edens I've seen in the US.
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2006, 11:31:30 AM »
Jim,
Since no one has given you any Hell yet....

The Eden is #11 on the Old Course, and yes that's what the bunkers in the back represent.
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redanman

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2006, 11:51:15 AM »
The Eden may be the most copied par 3 or actul hole, but it is not well-represented in most copies, certainly not as it exists at TOC.

Given all the crummy Eden holes out there save the original we seem to have a real winner here.  WOW.

George, were any contours of the already-existing green surface changed?

Yet another excuse to re-visit the greatest course in america :D , as if anyone really needed one.   ::)
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ed_getka

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2006, 01:13:15 PM »
George,
    Why do you think the bunkering on the front right of the green is so inconsequential? As compared to TOC that is.I have unfortunately only played NGLA once, so I may have missed something, but I thought #13 was the weakest hole (that being relative) on a course I absolutely LOVED.
     The expansion of the green back to the right certainly looks like it will improve the hole.
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George_Bahto

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2006, 01:18:09 PM »
Bill, the Redan-fella (look at this, he;s's talking about Eden holes  :o:  

Bill, no major area of the original green were change but
the area where the bunker was, was really in a hollow area so when the bunker was taken out they brought in a LOT of material in order to blend it the surrounding area. By the time they feathered out the area it encompassed a fairly large section. There is still some fine tuning to do but by the time the "season" starts you may never know be able to tell what was done.

Dave B: all work done at NGLA is based on as much historical information as can be found.

The rear port of the green doesn't really slope dramatically in any direction but most of the green slopes forward, as it should.

Mike Nuzzo: I could do that but ground level shots of this hole do not do it justice. That's why I thought it better showing it the way I did. (however, I'll check it out)
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

ForkaB

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2006, 01:28:44 PM »
Looks like an improvment to what I (like Ed) thought was the weakest hole on the course.  If they have designed enough risk-reward into the new back right area, it could be a winner.  There is actually a really neat back right pin position on the "real" Eden at ST. Andrews (actually the "High Hole (In)").  I've never seen it used, however. :'(

Now if they could just increase the back to front slope and toughen up those front bunkers......
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Bill_McBride

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 01:33:30 PM »
Rich, back right on #11 TOC would be on the #7 greenside?
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redanman

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2006, 01:40:59 PM »
Georgie

If I'd have lived in CBM's day, I'd have been sure to be part of his posse.  ;)  

He and his crew were the men to me.  Eden or Redan, Sahara, Valley,  Biarritz, Cape, Narrows, Plateau, Lang, Short, Away, Home,  In, Out,  In, Out In-N-Out, on the floor, behind the couch ... all good.

I'm versatile, you and me we wuz talking Edens at Waunemetonomy the last I remember....
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RJ_Daley

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2006, 01:53:32 PM »
George, just to be clear, are you saying that the bunker that was filled in, was in a hollow, yet the fill material feathered out led to a relatively flat newly opened back right portion of green, and the general back to front slope is the dominant slope?  I've never seen the hole except in your book where you describe MacDonald's slope from back to front at NGLA as less severe than TOC.  By opening that area in the right rear up, does it sort of give you the double green effect of the original Eden that is a double green, sharing the far right with the 7th?  Would a slight gradual slope runway to the far right area that is now opened up, into the wrap around bunker, with no rough collar cut be in keeping with the ideal?
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RJ_Daley

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2006, 01:57:49 PM »
As I remember, that Eden at Waunatonomy was a pretty hardy back to front slope, but bellied out flatish in the very front part of the green rather than lead to the front Strath gathering bunker like TOC's.
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PThomas

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2006, 02:07:24 PM »
I haven't there just yet, but even so the new green just looks a lot better than the old

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George_Bahto

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2006, 02:20:28 PM »
Rich - let me answer you by filling in your original text:

RJD: “George, just to be clear, are you saying that the bunker that was filled in, was in a hollow, yet the fill material feathered out led to a relatively flat newly opened back right portion of green, and the general back to front slope is the dominant slope?”  

Man, that’s a lot of question there....

Think about it this say. The bunker sat if a lower area than the area around it - perhaps 10 feet or more on all sides. What was done was to fill in the area so it blends with the rest of the green, trying to make it so couldn’t tell there was bunker there. The basic slope over the entire green was not altered.

 RJD: “I've never seen the hole except in your book where you describe MacDonald's slope from back to front at NGLA as less severe than TOC    .......... I don’t know of any Eden that had that much back to front slope.  

RJD: By opening that area in the right rear up, does it sort of give you the double green effect of the original Eden that is a double green, sharing the far right with the 7th?

I personally CBM built that green that big to simulate the great 11/7 double green at St Andrews. I think during hard times (and especially after CBM lost control of the club and course) the bunker was put in. I do not now for sure.  CB may have put the bunker in himself because the green’s size was too much to care for.  I have 1920's expense records around here and perhaps I can find a place where money was spent on13-green.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

ForkaB

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2006, 02:25:52 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on March 16, 2006, 01:33:30 PM
Rich, back right on #11 TOC would be on the #7 greenside?

Technically, yes, Bill........  Don't forget your smiley face next time.:)

The bit I'm talking about is at the back-middle of the double-green complex.  It is a flat bit right in front of a wee back pot bunker (which is in a similar position to the bunker which has apparently been removed at NGLA).
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wsmorrison

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2006, 04:35:18 PM »
I know I'm likely to catch a lot of flack for this seeing how revered NGLA is, and I think it is wonderful, but does anyone really think this conceptual Eden hole comes anywhere near the quality of the original Eden (High Hole Inward)?  It does not in my mind.  It seems like Rich Goodale is perhaps of a similar mind.  Oh, and I need to see it, but the green expansion looks to be a HUGE improvement.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 04:38:47 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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George_Bahto

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Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2006, 05:24:46 PM »
But Wayne this is what Macdonald built so what's the point in trying to figure out what was in his mind at the time. This is what he wanted on his course.

Personally, I do not think there is ONE Eden green that Mac/Raynor built that properly reflects the original St Andrews GREEN (not the bunkering) - very disappointing to me

The bunkering is fine but the greens, to me, never captured the severity properly - even at the slower green speeds of the 20's and 30's.

Heck it doesn't matter because the clubs would have Faz or someone come and take out all the severities. Witness the great greens at Engineers and you’ll soon hear more loss of other famous severe greens.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

wsmorrison

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2006, 06:06:33 PM »
I agree, George.  Macdonald had every right to build what he wanted, I just think the disconnect between the green at NGLA and other Eden concept holes is large.  I think the 11th at TOC is a magnificent and trecherous green and nothing like any of the ones I've seen over here.  Your own analysis, based on far more experience than my own seems to concur.

The resloping of classic greens is distressing in general.  I'm sure there are some slopes that were built that are too severe at 10 or 11 feet.  It would take a lot for me to be convinced that softening is the way to go.  Depends on number of pins and number of rounds, but a sad state of affairs to see so many greens dumbed down.
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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:NGLA: the "new" Eden green
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2006, 10:19:14 PM »
George Bahto,

Do you feel that the hole would play better from a tee to the immediate left rear of # 12 green ?  Especially in light of the prevailing wind ?

Played from left of the 12th green, the leftside bunker comes into play much moreso than it does from today's tee, much like the Travis bunker at GCGC.

Wayne Morrison,

CBM's fronting and flanking bunkers aren't in play as much as I'd like them to be.

What puzzles me is CBM's familiarity and personal experience with the Eden at GCGC, which I feel is far superior.

Knowing CBM's intimate knowledge of the Eden at GCGC and TOC, perhaps this was "his" variation of the hole, and he meant to distinguish it from the others.

I also wonder if there was some kind of connection or disconnection with respect to the 13th green and the old 12th green, especially if it did have the difficult horseshoe feature.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 10:20:41 PM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »
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