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George_Bahto

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The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« on: March 15, 2006, 03:00:58 PM »
very early photo that needs no further text:

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
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Sean_Tully

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2006, 03:16:12 PM »
George,

Very cool hole, does anyone have a current photo of the hole to sees it evolution?


Is that the one from Golf Illustrated?, They have 2-4 other pics of the course in the same issue, 2 are the same pics(redan and the 12th) Shack used (page 79-80) in the "Golden Age." I will have to look when I get home to verify what holes I have pics for besides the two I have already mentioned.

Tully

Tully
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Chris Pike

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2006, 03:28:09 PM »
Taken from the "Courses by Country" section from 1999:

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"Golf is a game in which you yell Fore, shoot six and write down five."  -Paul Harvey

Jerry Kluger

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2006, 03:31:47 PM »
George: I've played Somerset Hills, Shinnecock and NGLA - all of which have terrific redans:

1. Do you feel that any of them is better than the others - for some reason I felt the one at Somerset Hills was visually more intimidating.  

2. My recollection at Hidden Creek was that their redan was substantially longer and the left side bunker was deeper - do you view that as the evolution of the hole with the new equipment?
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2006, 03:38:04 PM »
From 2004

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 03:38:36 PM by Mike Sweeney »
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Keith Durrant

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2006, 03:59:29 PM »
Some interesting tree removal behind the green since 1999.
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2006, 04:12:45 PM »
Quote from: Sean Arble on March 15, 2006, 03:56:16 PM


Mike & George

Lovely looking hole!  Two questions: Will the ball feed to the back left pin? and Shouldn't a Redan be uphill?

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

If anything, it might feed too much or too quickly with today's grass speeds.

I have not played the original, and I don't know of any here that play uphill. All are flat to downhill to my knowledge.
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DTaylor18

Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2006, 04:20:17 PM »
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on March 15, 2006, 04:12:45 PM
Quote from: Sean Arble on March 15, 2006, 03:56:16 PM


Mike & George

Lovely looking hole!  Two questions: Will the ball feed to the back left pin? and Shouldn't a Redan be uphill?

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

If anything, it might feed too much or too quickly with today's grass speeds.

I have not played the original, and I don't know of any here that play uphill. All are flat to downhill to my knowledge.

Mike, you forgot our round at Piping Rock, a great uphill redan, one of my favorites.   :o  But you are completely right with regards to the green speeds. The Somerset Hills redan is in some ways the hardest one that I have played.  It is a gorgeous and fun hole!
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George_Bahto

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2006, 04:28:47 PM »
damn Sweeney - I wish I was tall like you -  ;D
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2006, 04:39:43 PM »
Jerry: that back left pin at Somerset is near impossible.

The ball feeds there but it is just like a "speed-putt" - it'd better be just right.

I think the Redans should be eye-level with just the mowed front edge showing {teasing} the golfer.

Don't get fooled by the elevated look at Somerset Hills 2nd - there is a mound there that is above the original tee where the p[ics were taken.

This hole also illustrated the difference between the Mac/Raynor Redans and the few Tillie Redans ...... it's about the kick-in shoulder:  

Macdonald and Raynor (and the rookie Banks) - their shoulders were well in front of the green while Tillie had his raised are well into the green.

They both work.

Tillie Redans: I've asked this question before.

How many Redans did he build and where are they:

so far, Somerset Hills - Essex County CC's 6th, the 10th at North Shore CC (NY) - not a very good one there .... where else??????????
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2006, 04:44:54 PM »
George and Mike. That is a super looking hole. I am dreaming of playing another Redan again soon. John
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Mark_Fine

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2006, 04:50:16 PM »
#14 at Suneagles is an outstanding reverse redan done by Tillie.
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Jay Cox

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2006, 05:40:32 PM »
While I'm normally not as keen on tree removal as some on the site, I think the improvement in look from 1999 to 2004 is nothing short of remarkable.

How do you all think the open appearance of the Somerset redan influences its intimidation value - and the way players approach it?  Perversely, I think the hole seems MORE intimidating because you can see the open space right and short left of the green.  The proper shot seems much harder to visualize than at, say, the Yale redan, where hill short and left and the broad slope to the right combine to frame a perfect draw.  Of course, the modern openness of the Somerset hole is nothing compared with that shown in George's fascinating early photo.
Should more redans (or, more generally, more holes that rely on green controuring for their interest) be built with little framing or visual clutter, so that the player focuses on the details of the putting surface when standing on the tee, rather than getting sucked in to the surrounding visuals?
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George_Bahto

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2006, 06:55:31 PM »
Sean: I see where you are coming from on the downhill look.

uphill Redan?    I don't think I've ever seen one. They may appear so but they are usually at the same level as the teeing ground - well, the original intended teeingground would be better said.

The appearance of being "uphill" is one of the great features of the genre.

boy, the more I look at that early picture the better I like it.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jim Sweeney

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2006, 07:25:53 PM »
George.

Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been awhile, but isn't the 9th at Fairfield uphill? And a damn finre redan, too.

Thanks.
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Moe Norman

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2006, 07:34:50 PM »
Uncle George,
Billy Bell created a pretty cool uphill Redan at Recreation Park.

The bunkers today are all grassed-in the tee moved drastically left, making it more of one-dimensional carry then the choice of carrying it or trying to hit a runner up there to get to a back left position.

The old tee area--a cute little teeing ground is also still there, but a slew of trees as well as the previous green being in a dangerous vacinity of that teeing ground is reason to see why they moved it. I'm sure speed of play, or for the most part--lack of money during the depression and war years, the reason why the bunkers were grassed-in.

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George_Bahto

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2006, 07:49:43 PM »
Mr Sweeney - you might be right about that. There is such a weird illusion on that tee.


That is one fine Redan. I thought the green, although tilted dramatically, hardly had any features in it ..... of course a lot was done to the course, in house, years ago by a long-time super.

I really like the ridge just in front of the putting surface - never saw one like it before

Let's try this explanation: it is like some humungously fat woman (well it could have been a guy, but it's more fun this way) ........   so the ground was really muddy and this huge fat person sat her butt down just short of the green.

This created a nice ridged, deflection mound with a hollow one each side of it, if you tried to roll one on to the green.


(I've got to get off this site)

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Steve Lapper

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2006, 09:33:54 PM »
Quote from: George_Bahto on March 15, 2006, 07:49:43 PM
Mr Sweeney - you might be right about that. There is such a weird illusion on that tee.


That is one fine Redan. I thought the green, although tilted dramatically, hardly had any features in it ..... of course a lot was done to the course, in house, years ago by a long-time super.

I really like the ridge just in front of the putting surface - never saw one like it before

Let's try this explanation: it is like some humungously fat woman (well it could have been a guy, but it's more fun this way) ........   so the ground was really muddy and this huge fat person sat her butt down just short of the green.

This created a nice ridged, deflection mound with a hollow one each side of it, if you tried to roll one on to the green.


(I've got to get off this site)




George,

 You are in need of serious psychological help for your imagination ;) Please seek help immediately!!

  The Redan at Somerset Hills is indeed a thing of beauty and it does most certainly play downhill. The ridge in the front of putting surface is certainly unique, but the really cool little feature not seen by photo is the minaturized hollow depression in the middle/center of the lower left third of the green. Like the "doughnut" depression of #6 at NGLA, the ball does feed into it (and, likely out of it with any pace). The most common members pin is usually dead center in it's middle (to help with that touchy 4th putt so frequently). It's a really neat feature.

    One of the other interesting facets of this hole is that there exists an unused tee (from nearly the exact vantage of the photographer in the GCA "Courses by Country" phote, Chris Pike put on this thread. It's now no more than flat ground under shaggy grass but would make the hole play close to 185-190 if used. It also worth noting that several holes-in-one's (I've come tantalzingly close 2X) have involved shots that have hit into the front right third and bounced off the top right "hump's" froghair. A close member friend tells me it seems one of the few ways to "take enough off the ball" to get to back left pin.

   Finally, you all should now that not only have the weeds (trees) been trimmed behind this green, but in fact, the whole wall of course boundary trees that line the wonderful 7th hole (in the background) have been thinned and will now allow for much more air movement. The groundskeeping staff has been diligent in tandem with the membership in fastidiously uprooting offending barks.

    Love the hole and drive (often a little out of my way) to see it majestically arise off that knob. :)

   
 
 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 09:36:21 PM by Steve Lapper »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2006, 09:46:29 PM »
Quote from: Sean Arble on March 15, 2006, 07:10:52 PM
George

So far as I remember the original is uphill, not much, but enough to encourage a grounder shaped to the left.  Perhaps the back part of the green is at tee level, but I don't think so.  While I wouldn't call the shot blind, it is darn close.  Hence attacking a "parapet".  It was my impression that CB Mac. impoved on the original by making his NGLA version totally visible.

The 4th at NGLA is NOT totally visible.


George Bahto,

The 3rd at Piping Rock is uphill.

I also feel that the better redans don't provide visibility with respect to seeing the actual hole.  On # 4 at NGLA you can't see the cup like you can at Somerset, and that added element of missing information makes the hole a little more difficult to figure out.[/color]
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T_MacWood

Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2006, 08:33:41 AM »
I believe the Redan at North Shore is the work of Dev Emmet. Tillinghast redesigned Emmet's course and kept a few of the famous model holes.
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archie_struthers

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2006, 09:29:45 AM »

Man, I forgot how cool that hole is, it's been a long time. Sans the cape, are the elevations similar to #7 at Shinnecock?  Love the pictures!
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Ted Kramer

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2006, 09:40:24 AM »
Great pictures, thanks for posting.
Here is a pic from Shinnecock with a little photoshop touch-up help from one of our own.
Enjoy . . .




-Ted
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archie_struthers

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2006, 09:43:17 AM »
 :D ;) 8)

Ditto on your picture Ted!!!
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Jerry Kluger

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2006, 09:43:45 AM »
Man is it tough to decide which one I like the most.
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George_Bahto

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Re:The Beatiful Redan at Somerset Hills
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2006, 09:48:27 AM »
Tom, you're probably right because that one is such a dinky thing, very narrow and they have the tee straight in to the green - no angle play at all.

The green is so small that if you angled into the green it would probably be too tough for membership.

The falloff on the left looks like something out of Yale - they have a couple layers of saving bunkers down the steep hill.

There is a dramatic Eden hole there (#10) but over the years the rear bunker was actually moved from behind the green, onto the rear of the putting surface ????????????????????

So back to the great Tillie's Redan ..... not many.

Do you fella think my take on the Tillie kick-in shoulder is correct?

And where did he build simulations of the Road hole - either a hole or a green complex?
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson
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