Wow

« **on:** March 14, 2006, 02:32:26 PM »

Did I miss it on another thread, or has no one yet noted the review in this month's Golf Magazine (page 177):

"Let this stand as a vote for Pebble's ouster from the throne: Pacific Dunes is America's finest public-access course"

"The strength of Pacific Dunes...is in a dizzying array of options you face at every turn..."

"That's why numbers are as irrelevant here as at the Old Course in St. Andrews..."

"Two thumbs, way up" (actually, I made this last one up).

And on and on goes the praise from writer Eamon Lynch.
Congratulations, Mr. Tom Doak! Well done

Peter

« **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM »

I don't get it..He must of written that before he played Bandon Trails..

I'm starting to wonder..Is Doak the neediest architect out there today..in terms of praise that is..

« **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2006, 02:47:44 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM

I don't get it...

That's right John, you just don't get it.

« **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2006, 02:49:00 PM »

John,
don't know the answer to your second question, but as to your first, according to Lynch:

"Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore were given the least impressive property at Bandon and did a decent job with it. But Bandon is just that - a decent resort course". And then the review gets worse from there (?)

Btw, about Bandon Dunes, he says that it "labours under the ever lengthening shadow cast by Pacific Dunes, but it's still one of the best tracks you'll ever play".

Ever lengthening shadow, eh? Hmm. I wonder what particular on-line gca discussion board might be casting said shadow?

Peter

« **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2006, 02:49:35 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM

I don't get it..He must of written that before he played Bandon Trails..

I'm starting to wonder..Is Doak the neediest architect out there today..in terms of praise that is..

John,

I don't remember Doak grovelling for praise, here or anywhere else.

Bob

« **Reply #5 on:** March 14, 2006, 02:53:38 PM »

By that logic, Michael Jordan would be the neediest athlete ever, since he received the most praise...

« **Reply #6 on:** March 14, 2006, 03:00:01 PM »

Inquiring minds want to know, what is Mr. Kavanaugh's secret (or not so secret

) agenda?

« **Reply #7 on:** March 14, 2006, 03:03:56 PM »

I think the sun came out when he played trails as opposed to when he played PD and BD. That caused him to conclude that C&C are truly all knowing, all powerful GCAs.

« **Reply #8 on:** March 14, 2006, 03:32:22 PM »

"By that logic, Michael Jordan would be the neediest athlete ever, since he received the most praise..."

An artifact of the times and the lack of team play in the NBA. Jordan couldn't hold Wilt's jockstrap!

« **Reply #9 on:** March 14, 2006, 03:42:57 PM »

and Wilt couldn't hold Russell's...

« **Reply #10 on:** March 14, 2006, 03:51:25 PM »

I'm trying to imagine what the critique of Pacific Dunes would be, but I really don't see it. It has one of the best front nines of which I'm aware (holes 2 through 8 are particularly strong, although the tee shot into the wind at 9 is certainly memorable as well); it has an incredible collection of diverse and interesting par 4s; and the overall look and feel of the course is as good as it gets, IMHO.

I know Pacific Dunes doesn't particularly need me to come to its defense, but I really don't know what the (meritorious) argument against it would be.

« **Reply #11 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:02:40 PM »

Quote from: Bob_Huntley on March 14, 2006, 02:49:35 PM

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM
I don't get it..He must of written that before he played Bandon Trails..

I'm starting to wonder..Is Doak the neediest architect out there today..in terms of praise that is..

John,

I don't remember Doak grovelling for praise, here or anywhere else.

Bob

Bob,

The following borders on needy in my book...I love Doak and hate to be such a jerk..but we don't need the leading architect of our day designing for the critics...see below from the Golfweek list thread:

I was disappointed to see Stonewall drop from the list -- it fell pretty far, too, especially considering that it was one of the only courses in Philly last year to survive the rough conditions well.

I suspect it is falling in part because some of my other work is making its way up the list or (hopefully) about to be in there next year. In some ways architects are competing against their own other courses, because there is a reluctance to have too many courses by any designer on the list -- familiarity makes your work less original looking, and when you build a new course of prominence one of your old courses must (indirectly) take the fall. That explains many of the dropped courses, though not Cog Hill.

« **Reply #12 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:06:19 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM

I don't get it..He must of written that before he played Bandon Trails..

I'm starting to wonder..Is Doak the neediest architect out there today..in terms of praise that is..

John,

As Pat Mucci would say, you are being disingenuous with your comments. I read everything you had to say about Pacific after your trip over here to America's Linksland.

You played the course in bad weather. You played some sort of alternate shot with a 20+ handicapper. You fully admitted that you don't remember a lot of the course. You even stated that you are in no position to knowledgeably comment on the course because you do not remember much of it.

Shame on you!

« **Reply #13 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:24:31 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 04:02:40 PM

Quote from: Bob_Huntley on March 14, 2006, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM

Bob,

The following borders on needy in my book...I love Doak and hate to be such a jerk..but we don't need the leading architect of our day designing for the critics...see below from the Golfweek list thread:

Isnt any great course gonna be on the rankings John??

The whole point of rankings is to praise great courses.

If he didn't design courses to be great then there is no point in him even designing a course.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:39:06 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 14, 2006, 04:24:31 PM

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 04:02:40 PM
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on March 14, 2006, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM

Bob,

The following borders on needy in my book...I love Doak and hate to be such a jerk..but we don't need the leading architect of our day designing for the critics...see below from the Golfweek list thread:

Isnt any great course gonna be on the rankings John??

The whole point of rankings is to praise great courses.

If he didn't design courses to be great then there is no point in him even designing a course.

Jordan,

I promise you that the golf world will not be better off if Doak designs courses for the purpose of them being ranked...Do you think Picasso ever finished a painting and "hoped" (Doak's word not mine) that the critics would love it...In terms you may understand..We don't want the tail wagging the dog. And no...every great course is not ranked, though every course the rankers love may be..

« **Reply #15 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:43:06 PM »

Quote from: Sean Leary on March 14, 2006, 03:42:57 PM

and Wilt couldn't hold Russell's...

I'm still looking forward to my trip to Bandon Dunes next year. Just as long as I don't have to hold anyone's jockstrap...

« **Reply #16 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:43:29 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 04:39:06 PM

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 14, 2006, 04:24:31 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 04:02:40 PM
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on March 14, 2006, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM

Bob,

The following borders on needy in my book...I love Doak and hate to be such a jerk..but we don't need the leading architect of our day designing for the critics...see below from the Golfweek list thread:

Isnt any great course gonna be on the rankings John??

The whole point of rankings is to praise great courses.

If he didn't design courses to be great then there is no point in him even designing a course.

Jordan,

I promise you that the golf world will not be better off if Doak designs courses for the purpose of them being ranked...Do you think Picasso ever finished a painting and "hoped" (Doak's word not mine) that the critics would love it...In terms you may understand..We don't want the tail wagging the dog. And no...every great course is not ranked, though every course the rankers love may be..

This is blasphemous.

If you designed a course of course you would want everybody to like it, and that includes the critics. Keep in mind critics aren't stupid and they know when they see a great course. Every course that should be ranked is, and every course not good enough to be ranked isnt. If you do not think Pacific Dunes should be ranked then you are gonna have a lot of people going against you.

Doak doesnt design his courses for the critics, he designs courses for the enjoyability of everybody that plays them. Everybody includes the critics so if they like the course it must be good.

« **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:47:08 PM »

Don't you guys get it?

If every one of you changes your mind and agrees that Tom Doak is praise-groveling hack, this clown will start a new thread praising Doak as a man of integrity, a paragon of virtue, a titan among men!

And some of you will still take the bait.....

« **Reply #18 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:49:47 PM »

Jordan,

Please...all I said was that I think Bandon Trails is better than Pacific Dunes...I think they both should be ranked. Have you met anyone on this site so I can verify you're not just some long time poster trying to get my goat. You say if the critics like it it must be good and I'm suppose to sit here and take it because you are 16...You are driving me to my LCCC buck fifty beers sooner than I planned.

« **Reply #19 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:51:45 PM »

Quote from: PJKoenig on March 14, 2006, 04:47:08 PM

Don't you guys get it?

If every one of you changes your mind and agrees that Tom Doak is praise-groveling hack, this clown will start a new thread praising Doak as a man of integrity, a paragon of virtue, a titan among men!

And some of you will still take the bait.....

PJ,

Can you believe that me, Doak and Don Imus all have brothers living in Tucson...I gotta love the guy..

« **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:56:56 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 04:02:40 PM

Quote from: Bob_Huntley on March 14, 2006, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 14, 2006, 02:39:21 PM
I don't get it..He must of written that before he played Bandon Trails..

I'm starting to wonder..Is Doak the neediest architect out there today..in terms of praise that is..

John,

I don't remember Doak grovelling for praise, here or anywhere else.

Bob

Bob,

The following borders on needy in my book...I love Doak and hate to be such a jerk..but we don't need the leading architect of our day designing for the critics...see below from the Golfweek list thread:

I was disappointed to see Stonewall drop from the list -- it fell pretty far, too, especially considering that it was one of the only courses in Philly last year to survive the rough conditions well.

I suspect it is falling in part because some of my other work is making its way up the list or (hopefully) about to be in there next year. In some ways architects are competing against their own other courses, because there is a reluctance to have too many courses by any designer on the list -- familiarity makes your work less original looking, and when you build a new course of prominence one of your old courses must (indirectly) take the fall. That explains many of the dropped courses, though not Cog Hill.

I've read this many times and I still fail to see how this says in any way that Tom is designing courses for raters/rankers. Take off your conspiracy goggles, John, and try simply reading what Tom wrote and taking him at his word.

« **Reply #21 on:** March 14, 2006, 05:02:08 PM »

Trails is 17 on the GW list, I believe

« **Reply #22 on:** March 14, 2006, 05:05:34 PM »

George,

My initial premise was that he was getting needy...I think his use of the word "hopefully" in parenthesis no less nails it. Then he goes on to say that his existing courses are starting to suffer because his new stuff is so good. He has it bassackwards...Quail Creek gets better everyday because it was done by a great architect, I even catch myself wanting to play it now because of Doak's accolades when I had zero interest three years ago.

« **Reply #23 on:** March 14, 2006, 05:07:07 PM »

Quote from: Paul T on March 14, 2006, 05:02:08 PM

Trails is 17 on the GW list, I believe

Oh..so that makes me wrong..

« **Reply #24 on:** March 14, 2006, 05:07:44 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 14, 2006, 04:43:29 PM

Every course that should be ranked is, and every course not good enough to be ranked isnt.

Assuming this is a serious statement, it's the silliest thing I've ever read on this site. I believe one would call this statement a tautology, which is a kind of fallacy.

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