Links: Difference between Scottish, Irish, English...

« **on:** March 10, 2006, 01:05:35 PM »

I think this might have been posted before,but what do you think each country gives its links courses that's different to other countries. Is an Irish links different to a Scottish, English, or Welsh one?

Now we have links in Australia, is it differnt to those in GB and I? Does it offer anything Australian? United States?

« **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2006, 02:08:34 PM »

I'll leave it to those who have much more links experience than I to comment more fully, but I'll throw in these thoughts:

Many Irish courses, while not unique in this regard, seem to be located in wild and isolated places. Ireland doesn't seem to have the courses that truly start and end in the middle of town. The rugged locations really create a sense of playing primeval golf.

If you classify Bandon and Pacific Dunes as links (not true links, I know, but they're sand-based, windy and overlooking the ocean), there is something about the blue Pacific Ocean that really enhances the experience. As much as I love Ireland, I can't say there are any more beautiful sites than at Bandon (oh, and the golf courses aren't bad either). There might be the same effect at someplace like Barnbougle Dunes.

« **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2006, 02:50:02 PM »

Most of my links is exposure is in Ireland and in the west of Ireland the dunes seem steeper and choppier. In my limited experience in Scotland it's more rolling and the elevation change is less.

A general observation with many exceptions is that bunkers in the west of Ireland are more like dug out pits and wind blown. In Scotland I'd expect more of the sodwall, railroad tie, or well defined bunker lines.

« **Reply #3 on:** March 13, 2006, 03:23:54 AM »

Tim

Yes, I suppose. One exception would be Lahinch, which is kind of in the town, nearly.

Bill

I think that there seems to be larger dunes over here. Maybe the reason for this is that the west coast of Ireland, particularly the northwest coast, is the windiest place in Europe.

The east coast of Ireland is not as windy, and the dunes are smaller.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2006, 07:40:25 AM »

The best I can do is to use the following as a general rule.

Ballyliffin Old is a Scottish Course in Ireland
Cruden Bay is an Irish course in Scotland.

OR

Kennedy Bay is Scottish
Barnbougle is Irish.

Barwon Heads has a Scottish Mother and an Irish Father.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2006, 08:26:35 AM »

v few true out and backs in Ireland.

« **Reply #6 on:** March 13, 2006, 09:24:15 AM »

Sean, I have heard Cruden Bay is a bit like an Irish course, sure enough.

Scottish mother, Irish father. Sounds like James Connolly.

Paul - that's true. I suppose Royal Dublin is one, but there are not many, I don't think .

« **Reply #7 on:** March 13, 2006, 01:45:11 PM »

In thinking about this I've been trawling the memory bank for the very large number of links courses I've played in my life and what strikes me is how different from one another they all are. I am sure if I were set down, blindfold on any of the links courses I have played I would recognise it immediately the blindfold came off, whereas that might not be true of a parkland course. I'm also struck by how very different a number of courses adjacent to one another can be: TOC, Eden, New, Jubilee; Troon Old, Portland; Prince's, Royal St George's; Birkdale, Hillside, S&A; RCD Big and Little.

My suggestion probably doesn't hold water - too well drained - and no doubt someone will tell me so forcefully.

« **Reply #8 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:10:56 AM »

In Ireland the dunes are, in general, bigger. I'm no geography expert but I assume this is due to the greater exposure to the Atlantic. In addition, Irish links tend to have been built more recently. As a result, construction of courses through bigger dunes was possible. Environmental issues did not carry as much weight in Ireland also - presumably due to the fact that the need for income in some remote areas of Ireland outweighs environmental concerns.

In Ireland, wonderful links through towering dunes have been built in the last 20 years or so (Doonbeg, Ballybunion Cashen, Carne, Enniscrone, Waterville, Rosapenna, Ballyliffin, Tralee) whereas none have been built in Britain.

There is great linksland in Britain but courses will never be built there. The attached photos are of Braunton Burrows, a 5 mile long stretch of massive dunes in Devon. The two courses at Saunton skirt the edge of these dunes but 10 courses could be built here. Likewise, anyone who has stood on the 14th tee at Pyle and Kenfig and not thought what great courses could be built in the vast expanse of dunes on view is no golf lover.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:30:14 AM »

Quote from: Mark_Rowlinson on March 13, 2006, 01:45:11 PM

In thinking about this I've been trawling the memory bank for the very large number of links courses I've played in my life and what strikes me is how different from one another they all are. I am sure if I were set down, blindfold on any of the links courses I have played I would recognise it immediately the blindfold came off, whereas that might not be true of a parkland course. I'm also struck by how very different a number of courses adjacent to one another can be: TOC, Eden, New, Jubilee; Troon Old, Portland; Prince's, Royal St George's; Birkdale, Hillside, S&A; RCD Big and Little.

My suggestion probably doesn't hold water - too well drained - and no doubt someone will tell me so forcefully.

Mark

You nailed it! Mother Nature has never been predictable, and Vive les Differences! I tend to retch when people refer to faux links courses as "Irish" or "Scottish" or whatever. Yes, there are alot of high dunes in Ireland, but there are in Scotland too, and possibly the best true links in Irleand (Ballyliffin Old, Portsalon) would not look at all out of place in St. Andrews.

PS--can't wait to see the differences between Hoylake and Wallasey at the Buda Cup!

Ed

Over the past 20 years, the UK has created Kingsbarns, Dundonald, Skibo, and more are coming. The Irish courses you cite are either remodels or not really (yet) up to the standard of the ones in the UK, IMHO (unles you chose to include Portsalon!

).

« **Reply #10 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:43:02 AM »

Sean

If Ed hadn't said "...none have been built in Britain..." I wouldn't have been so scadgey. I've heard too that Enniscrone is excellent, and I will get my butt out there some day, if there is a god.....

« **Reply #11 on:** March 14, 2006, 04:59:18 AM »

Quote from: Rich Goodale on March 14, 2006, 04:30:14 AM

Quote from: Mark_Rowlinson on March 13, 2006, 01:45:11 PM
In thinking about this I've been trawling the memory bank for the very large number of links courses I've played in my life and what strikes me is how different from one another they all are. I am sure if I were set down, blindfold on any of the links courses I have played I would recognise it immediately the blindfold came off, whereas that might not be true of a parkland course. I'm also struck by how very different a number of courses adjacent to one another can be: TOC, Eden, New, Jubilee; Troon Old, Portland; Prince's, Royal St George's; Birkdale, Hillside, S&A; RCD Big and Little.

My suggestion probably doesn't hold water - too well drained - and no doubt someone will tell me so forcefully.

Mark

You nailed it! Mother Nature has never been predictable, and Vive les Differences! I tend to retch when people refer to faux links courses as "Irish" or "Scottish" or whatever. Yes, there are alot of high dunes in Ireland, but there are in Scotland too, and possibly the best true links in Irleand (Ballyliffin Old, Portsalon) would not look at all out of place in St. Andrews.

PS--can't wait to see the differences between Hoylake and Wallasey at the Buda Cup!

Ed

Over the past 20 years, the UK has created Kingsbarns, Dundonald, Skibo, and more are coming. The Irish courses you cite are either remodels or not really (yet) up to the standard of the ones in the UK, IMHO (unles you chose to include Portsalon! ).

Rich - Doonbeg, Waterville, Tralee, Carne, Ballyliffin (Glashedy), Rosapenna (Sandy Hills), and Ballybunion Cashen were all new courses. Waterville was built in the 70's I think with the rest 80's or later (Doonbeg and Rosapenna in the last 10 years). Enniscrone was an existing course but 7 completely new holes were designed in the big dunes. I agree with Sean that this is a wonderful course.

You are right with what you say about the new UK courses - they were 'created'. Kingsbarns was a field, Skibo and Dundonald were hardly ideal linksland (from what I hear - I haven't played them). Genuine top quality linksland in Britain has either already been built on or will never be built on. Machrihanish may be an honourable exception - but this is an area very similar to the remote areas of west Ireland. The need for income in the area may prove a stronger force than the environmental lobby.

« **Reply #12 on:** March 14, 2006, 05:22:26 AM »

Hiya Ed

Wateville was built in the early 70's. I first played there in 1979 and it was essentially mature then. I know Ballyliffin very well as my wife's family is from the area, and I have been visiting there off and on since 1991. The Glashedy course is a great oppotunity spoiled, and the fact that they screwed up the fantastic Old Course in the process, approaches GCA criminality. Hopefully Faldo will be picking up at least some of the pieces sometime soon.....

If you haven't played the new Portsalon, do so. It is at least as good as than any of the courses you or I have listed above.

There is a lot of great links land remaining in Scotland. Some of it is already being developed (viz. Parsinen outside of Inverness). Much more awaits people with vision and cojones.

All the best

Rich

« **Reply #13 on:** March 14, 2006, 12:48:00 PM »

I haven't played Portsalon since it was altered, but all the reports I ;'ve heard are great. As you probably know, this is one of the original members of the Golfing Union of Ireland, the oldest golfing union in the world, I beleive.

I have played few, if any, courses better than Enniscrone. I also think it wouldn't take too many changes to make Carne a world beater, although some people already think it is. These changes probably won't be made, though.

I'll have to get up to the Northwest.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 15, 2006, 03:38:57 AM »

Does anyone have any pictures of Portsalon? I can't really find any on the web.

Enniscrone is magnificent. It is nothing short of a disgrace that Golf World UK do not rank it in the top 100 course in the UK and Ireland. I have played few better and several on the list that are significantly inferior. There are some great photos of Enniscrone on Aidan Bradley's website:

http://www.golfcoursephotography.com

« **Reply #15 on:** March 15, 2006, 05:35:56 AM »

I don't know whether this is the new 2nd hole or the old one. I beleive it has been changed from a par 3 to a par 4, but I'm not sure if the location has changed.

Actually, now that I think of it, I don't remember trees near the course, although it's a long time since I was there. I wonder if this picture is of Portsalon at all.

« **Reply #16 on:** March 15, 2006, 07:34:31 AM »

I just did a Google Image search for Portsalon Golf Club and it revealed a number, including the one in Jack's post.

http://www.ireland.ie/things_2_do_results_single.asp?sID=745
http://www.donegaldirect.com/Site_WS_Business_Details.aspx?business_name=Portsalon+Golf+Club
http://www.golfeurope.com/clubs/portsalon/
http://www.irishgolfcourses.co.uk/north/portsalon.php
http://www.tailormadegolftours.com/northwestern-golf-index.html
http://www.golftoursniagara.com/specials_ireland.html
http://www.portsalon.co.uk/pg_activities.htm
http://www.golfvacationsireland.com/view_course_desc.php?print=true&id=23&
http://golfmaster.ie/showdetail.asp?type=crs&id=131

« **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2006, 04:43:46 PM »

Just wondering, has anyone else played Portsalon before and after the recent changes and bemoaned the loss of what was perhaps the most old fashioned links course in Ireland...I don't think Pat has done a bad job, I just wish they hadn't done anything at all....many of the original holes are still there, but the feel has all changed in my view.

« **Reply #18 on:** March 16, 2006, 09:25:33 PM »

I'm fortunate enough to have experienced all three, but I can tell you that isn't much help to understanding the difference.

I wish someone knew the dune expert that Mark Parnisan used to help Kyle Phillips, I'm sure he would have some interesting insights.

« **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2006, 01:42:40 AM »

Quote from: Jack_Marr on March 15, 2006, 05:35:56 AM

I don't know whether this is the new 2nd hole or the old one. I beleive it has been changed from a par 3 to a par 4, but I'm not sure if the location has changed.

Actually, now that I think of it, I don't remember trees near the course, although it's a long time since I was there. I wonder if this picture is of Portsalon at all.

Since that photo has been taken from our website

I can assure you that it IS from Portsalon! It is now the second hole (an adaption of the old number three). The old number two, a singular par 3 that sort of played under and around the cliffs right on the beach, all over water, is now gone.

« **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2006, 02:30:13 AM »

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=559;start=msg12359#msg12359

Above, an old thread on Portsalon.

Ian

Ran must know Robert Price (the "Dune Guy") as he did an interview with him a few years ago on this site.

« **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2006, 07:23:55 AM »

Quote from: Richard Phinney on March 16, 2006, 04:43:46 PM

Just wondering, has anyone else played Portsalon before and after the recent changes and bemoaned the loss of what was perhaps the most old fashioned links course in Ireland...I don't think Pat has done a bad job, I just wish they hadn't done anything at all....many of the original holes are still there, but the feel has all changed in my view.

Richard,

As I say, I haven't played it since the changes. Do they ever play the old layout anymore?

« **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2006, 11:17:39 AM »

Quote from: Jack_Marr on March 17, 2006, 07:23:55 AM

Quote from: Richard Phinney on March 16, 2006, 04:43:46 PM
Just wondering, has anyone else played Portsalon before and after the recent changes and bemoaned the loss of what was perhaps the most old fashioned links course in Ireland...I don't think Pat has done a bad job, I just wish they hadn't done anything at all....many of the original holes are still there, but the feel has all changed in my view.

Richard,

As I say, I haven't played it since the changes. Do they ever play the old layout anymore?

That wasn't my impression during my most recent visit....I'm sure the 2nd was rather brutal to maintain anyway being so close to the beach. I think you should count yourself lucky to have played the previous layout.

« **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2006, 11:44:01 AM »

"Difference between Scottish, Irish, English..."

That's easy---

The first is about as cheap as it gets.
The second is about as besotted as it gets,
And, The third is about as pompous as it gets--
(not including the French of course)

News:

Jack_Marr

Tim Pitner

Bill Gayne

Jack_Marr

Sean Walsh

Paul_Turner

Jack_Marr

Mark_Rowlinson

Ed Tilley

ForkaB

ForkaB

Ed Tilley

ForkaB

Jack_Marr

Ed Tilley

Jack_Marr

Mark_Rowlinson

Richard Phinney

Ian Andrew

Richard Phinney

ForkaB

Jack_Marr

Richard Phinney

TEPaul