There's something wrong with the greens..

« **on:** March 05, 2006, 04:47:40 PM »

when Tiger Woods only misses 2 putts from 10 feet and under, all week.

PGA Tour golf, as well as golf at the other highest levels, has become a driver, wedge, putter game, with few if any challenges on the greens.

Increased green speeds have resulted in the softening of putting surfaces.

Architects need to work on green configurations in conjunction with slope and contouring.

The 1st, 3rd, 6th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 15th at NGLA are examples of greens that present a challenge at 10 feet and under. We need more of them.

Has the influence of former PGA Tour players turned architect resulted in bland putting surfaces ?

« **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:16:01 PM »

Judging by the announcers comments about lack of contour, the greens certainly don't appear to be very interesting...personally I'm looking forward to Sawgrass in a few weeks though

How anyone could go almost 72 holes with only missing 2 putts inside 10 feet is beyond me though, no matter what greens you're putting on. That's impressive stuff.

« **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:16:36 PM »

Patrick, Tiger didn't miss a single putt from inside 10ft at the 2000 US Open and Open Championship. Are the putting surfaces on TOC bland?

« **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:17:16 PM »

I don't know if it is just the former tour players, or the tour in general. Whenever those guys see things they deem not fair there is an uproar by the players and changes are made. The players are quite used to putting fast greens and I'm sure they would freak on highly contoured greens that would have to roll much slower than they are accustomed to.

I've heard of some players grumbling about the Cali greens because they are a tad bumpy, so I can't imagine slow contoured surfaces.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:19:47 PM »

Quote from: Andy Troeger on March 05, 2006, 05:16:01 PM

How anyone could go almost 72 holes with only missing 2 putts inside 10 feet is beyond me though, no matter what greens you're putting on. That's impressive stuff.

Yeah, and Tiger is ranked 32nd in putting this week.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:23:09 PM »

Chris,

Good point on TOC. Tiger can certainly handle most situations!

« **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:24:56 PM »

Quote from: Chris Kane on March 05, 2006, 05:16:36 PM

Patrick, Tiger didn't miss a single putt from inside 10ft at the 2000 US Open and Open Championship. Are the putting surfaces on TOC bland?

Chris,

Where did you obtain this information ?

Absent hard facts, I find it hard to believe, especially at Pebble Beach, since the wind didn't blow much at TOC.

I wouldn't call the greens at TOC or Pebble, contoured or highly contoured.

Winged Foot this year will be another matter.

« **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:30:07 PM »

The TV commentary I heard mentioned that since the greens have been overseeded with Poa trivialis (which gives the nice green look) that they have been softer as well (presumably because of the irrigation required by the poa triv). Two of the commentators reflected on the old bermuda greens which were firm and made the approach more difficult - encouraging.

I have only played limited golf on bermuda greens (in Brisbane in the winter of 2004). There I played three different courses, each with a different amount of poa triv overseeding. I struggled the most with the pure bermuda (at Coolum) and found the heavily overseeded poa triv greens at a emmber club in Brisbane the least difficult 9still too difficult for me, but not as bad as pure bermuda).

Does this sound right?

James B

Edit - I also recall that when many of my club's greens were rebuilt in the 1980's, some were built with more slope. The pretext was that as the greens would transition to poa, and as poa breaks less than bent, then the greens needed more slope. Of course, an interesting side outcome is that greens with a little more slope have better surface drainage, which helps to manage the domination of poa vs bent. IMO, flat bent greens are poa greens just waiting to happen, whilst a sloped and drained green is better able to retain a high bent percentage.

Does this 'less break with poa' vs bent greens also work on bermuda overseeded wit poa triv vs bermuda pure?

« **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:30:47 PM »

Patrick, I've read it multiple times, both on the internet and in magazines. I'm not going to vouch for the accuracy of the information though. Yes, its hard to believe - a freakish display of putting.

I agree with your general point, but I don't think its fair to draw conclusions from the putting stats of one player.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:55:30 PM »

Quote from: Pete Galea on March 05, 2006, 05:19:47 PM

Quote from: Andy Troeger on March 05, 2006, 05:16:01 PM
How anyone could go almost 72 holes with only missing 2 putts inside 10 feet is beyond me though, no matter what greens you're putting on. That's impressive stuff.

Yeah, and Tiger is ranked 32nd in putting this week.

True...but that putting stat (assuming its the one I'm thinking of) is very dependent on iron play. Considering that up until the last two holes that he'd been hitting almost every green its still not that surprising that he'd missed a lot of putts over 10 feet.

« **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2006, 06:11:35 PM »

Pat, it has nothing to do with architects and everything to do with superintendents, agronomy and increased consistency. The greatest differences on Tour courses and on all greens today are not only increased speeds but greater consistency from one green to the next. There's less variance than ever and thus Tour pros don't need to adjust as much as they used to during a round from green to green.

« **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2006, 06:22:36 PM »

Pat,
You should believe those putting numbers of Tiger's, after all, he is the chosen one.

http://www.tigerwoodsisgod.com/index.php

« **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2006, 06:25:19 PM »

Ah, but Johnny said the grain went this way and that? Doesn't sound so consistent?

Steve

« **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2006, 06:46:30 PM »

At what point do you stop blaming the course and start respecting the talent of the greatest golfer on the planet? There's a reason he is on pace to break virtually every record in the book—he's good.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 05, 2006, 06:49:20 PM »

I think the greens were soft--and are bland-- because Doral is for profit. They probably lose a bunch of money tournament week. To make it up, they keep it green green green for the snowbirds and TV. Bet they don't care about par. Didn't I hear the announcers say it had't rained much down there lately?

They didn't seem that fast either. Relative to PGA tournaments anyway.

« **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2006, 08:58:09 PM »

Though is doesn't negate Patrick's point, I think Tiger is not really the person to use to prove much of anything about golf. Here's a guy who made 566 in a row last year from 3 feet and in! He's already won three times this season, and nobody is even talking about it; he's just that good, and that far beyond the norms of the sport.

« **Reply #16 on:** March 05, 2006, 08:59:04 PM »

I'm know that they talked about the course being soft, but I really doubt that they overseeded the greens, let alone the fairways and tees. The color wasn't that of an overseed course-Wait until Bay Hill in 2 weeks. Doral is too far south to have to overseed. The stripes that were in the tees and fairways were because they burned they into the bermuda.....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2006, 09:05:50 PM »

It was definitely overseeded, fwiw.

« **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2006, 09:17:36 PM »

Quote from: Brad Klein on March 05, 2006, 06:11:35 PM

Pat, it has nothing to do with architects and everything to do with superintendents, agronomy and increased consistency. The greatest differences on Tour courses and on all greens today are not only increased speeds but greater consistency from one green to the next. There's less variance than ever and thus Tour pros don't need to adjust as much as they used to during a round from green to green.

Brad, I thinkl there are cases where many tour courses will give you a fairly flat putt if you get the ball pin high but some of the older courses that have greens that slope back to front will have putts that can be 5 feet in length and break 18 inches....IMHO older greens that were built b4 the 1% to 2% rule for pins came into being are mch more difficult....on such greens it is important to keep the ball below the hole and thus an approach may be best 5 yards short than pin high..

« **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2006, 09:59:41 PM »

Jimbo,

What were they overseeded with and at what rate? The GCSAA Tournament Fact Sheet says the greens are tifdwarf bermudagrass cut at .100" and from my cheap little television your sure couldn't see any mowing stripes that are common on overseeded bermudagrass greens.

Gary

« **Reply #20 on:** March 06, 2006, 12:10:21 AM »

Tiger's accomplishment represents a week of very good putting but it's not so unbelievable. I once played a 54 hole tournament missing only one putt inside of 10 feet, and it was a 9-footer. Obviously I putter great that week, but if I can do it, I can only imagine that Tiger can as well! Actually, Doral's greens were similar to the greens I did it on in Las Vegas - bermuda, smooth, and fast without being scary.

Making the greens a lot faster would make them harder, but then they'd just have to be built flatter. Increasing the slope would make them harder but if they're smooth, the pros will still make putts, especially because the speed would have to be only moderate.

I think that, from time to time, people just simply putt that well.

The one type of course I couldn't imagine accomplishing that kind of feat on is one where the greens are all domed/crowned/convex. Those are by far the hardest greens to putt, regardless of speed.

« **Reply #21 on:** March 06, 2006, 12:18:10 AM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on March 05, 2006, 05:24:56 PM

I wouldn't call the greens at TOC or Pebble, contoured or highly contoured.

You wouldn't call the greens at TOC contoured? Have you never played there?

« **Reply #22 on:** March 06, 2006, 12:26:42 AM »

Not taking anything away from them, but you have to be a great putter to stay on the tour.
1) The putters today are far superior to old products.
2) There are numerous gadgets to improve putting repetition.
3) Four eyes instead of two.
4) Mapping of green is done to the inch.
5) Practice, practice, practice.

My solution is more greens which are sectioned into smaller greens. Miss the small target, more contour. Strantzish.

« **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2006, 12:57:43 AM »

Doug,
I had the same thought, but I know Patrick has been there.
Patrick,
It is true that there are some flat areas on most of the greens, but pretty much every green on TOC, save #9 has some devilish areas, and I'm sure they take advantage of them during the Open.
I know Tiger couldn't putt like that on his best day ever on the greens that I love to putt on. Crystal Downs, NGLA, Lost Dunes, Rustic Canyon, etc... Then again, he is Tiger and I sure wouldn't wager any money against him.

« **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2006, 01:38:15 AM »

Quote from: Andy Troeger on March 05, 2006, 05:55:30 PM

Quote from: Pete Galea on March 05, 2006, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: Andy Troeger on March 05, 2006, 05:16:01 PM
How anyone could go almost 72 holes with only missing 2 putts inside 10 feet is beyond me though, no matter what greens you're putting on. That's impressive stuff.

Yeah, and Tiger is ranked 32nd in putting this week.

True...but that putting stat (assuming its the one I'm thinking of) is very dependent on iron play. Considering that up until the last two holes that he'd been hitting almost every green its still not that surprising that he'd missed a lot of putts over 10 feet.

After Doral, Tiger ranks 47th in putts per GIR: 1.744 vs 1.65 for the leader. In putts per round he ranks 125th: over 2 putts more per round than the leader.

Of course, Tiger hits more par 5's in two and more par 4's in one than almost all the others. He can two putt and still make birdie. Guys like Verplank -- the current leader -- have to one-putt more often. That might skew the stats a bit.

A question. Anyone know how they count the stats for GIR and putting average, when a player hits a par 5 in two, or drives a par 4? If you drive a par four, does that count as just an ordinary GIR?

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