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Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
GCA and steroids?
« on: March 04, 2006, 05:07:27 PM »
Ball and club technology have been mentioned here as factors which obliterate classic golf courses where pro game is concerned.

What about steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs?

Does the PGA Tour test for them in a rigorous manner?

NBC just mentioned that the originally 5-9, 150-lb Villegas just put on 25 lbs of muscle. They said he is a workout fiend. What?

While I would love to continue to believe in the purity of golf,  I prefer to use the old Reagan doctrine - Trust but Verify.

BTW - steroids also may also help eye-ball coordination and focus - is what I heard on the radio, but I totally believe it.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2006, 05:18:17 PM »
Voytek,

Who said that steroids aid eye-ball co-ordination ?

Golf requires power and FINESSE/TOUCH, and I've never heard of steroids improving dexterity or delicacy.

Oh wait, I heard on the radio that Neuro-Surgeons are starting to take steroids to improve their operating skills, especially with micro surgery on vessels 2mm and thiner. ;D

How much weight did Sergio, Tiger and Phil put on as they got a little older ?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 05:19:24 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2006, 05:54:38 PM »
It was reported that when Duval bulked up he was also taking creatine which was considered a "supplement" and sold at GNC stores. It supposedly improves what they call "fast twitch muscles."  

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2006, 06:11:39 PM »
Golf's as competitive as any other sport afflicted with performance-enhancing substance issues. If 300 yards is  good, 325 is better. It's just a matter of time....

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2006, 06:15:05 PM »
I don't know if creatine helps the fast-twitch muscles, but it will certainly help the growth of muscle mass. I would bet that the average person who works out 5 days a week, eats a proper diet, and takes creatine could add 25 pound of muscle in 6-10 months.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2006, 07:05:09 PM »
I don't know if creatine helps the fast-twitch muscles, but it will certainly help the growth of muscle mass. I would bet that the average person who works out 5 days a week, eats a proper diet, and takes creatine could add 25 pound of muscle in 6-10 months.

Dan-
 
  25 lbs of muscle is a lot for an average person, but on the average, 5-15 lb gains in a shorter time are very possible.  You'd be surprised what eating the right foods, at the correct times, having a strict workout and getting enough rest could do.  It's not a miracle substance--you still have to eat, train, and drink lots of water.  

  I gained close to 20 solid (muscle) pounds in Spring 2000 (194 up to 214) using it (creatine), along with a good training regimen.  I don't use it anymore, but I may go back on for a month or two in order to gain a little bit of muscle I lost over the past year through my back and leg injuries.  
  Never even thought about steroids.  

  I always had a difficult time balancing working out hard and playing good golf--I found that one suffers.  I'd be interested to see what kinds of workouts players such as Tiger, Adam Scott, Ricky Barnes, Vijay, etc., do during the season vs offseason.  My experience was that training arms and shoulders on a Monday, for example, was best, as my body would heal itself by Thursday or so, enabling me to spend Friday afternoon/night hitting balls or putting, preparing for the weekend.  Trying to hit balls after an arms and shoulders routine was pointless--no feel whatsoever.  Golf requires finesse and touch--very hard when one is all pumped up after a workout. Funny enough, I did find I could do a moderate legs workout (moderate weight squats and other exercises) and not adversely affect the golf.  

  Past few years, between May and October, I lift relatively light weights, spend a lot of time stretching, and leave the heavy iron for after the golf season.  I've also been using a Momentus in the gym, after working out, in an empty aerobics studio, to get a good stretch--plenty of funny looks from the guido crowd, but whatever--it's my thing.  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 07:08:30 PM by Douglas R. Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2006, 07:27:09 PM »
The cover story on the 3/04/06 GolfWeek is on the golf fitness craze. Gary Player is incredible. From the article: "In 40 years, his weight has not fluctuated more than two pounds, partly because of the crunches he does with a 100 pound weight on his stomach."

Douglas, the best exercise for me the day before or the day of playing is laps in the pool. Swimming seems to stretch the right muscles and the water is low impact.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 07:36:31 PM by Bill Gayne »

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2006, 10:51:46 PM »
Dudes, my main question was - is PGA Tour rigorously testing for steroids?

Yes or no?

Cause  I think they are being used and and will continue to be used more and more, further obliterating GCA.

Patrick:

I was listening to WFAN radio in New York about 6 months ago when they were discussing the use of steroids in baseball (Giambi, maybe Bonds).

A physician called in to the radio show, reporting a study where apparently the use of steroids greatly improved motor skills and coordination in test subjects.

So it is not just muscle build; it is also the motor skills that steroids can improve.

No surprise to me.

Is PGA Tour testing for steroids?

Because when the benefits of better balls and better clubs reach their limits, it will be (no doubt about it) the drugs that will play a role in lengthening and straightening the golf ball.




Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2006, 11:50:14 PM »
It was reported that when Duval bulked up he was also taking creatine which was considered a "supplement" and sold at GNC stores. It supposedly improves what they call "fast twitch muscles."  

Same "creatine" as Mark McGwire, right?  ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2006, 08:33:36 AM »
Voytek:  I thought you were referring to the marketing trend a couple of years back where courses were compared to "Pine Valley on steroids" or other such phrases.  I haven't seen it again recently, maybe someone finally got the message that the promotion of steroids has not been a great thing.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2006, 08:41:57 AM »
Craig, I think he was on Andro and the occassional needle from his fellow Bash Brother.

TEPaul

Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2006, 10:03:17 AM »
"Voytek:  I thought you were referring to the marketing trend a couple of years back where courses were compared to "Pine Valley on steroids" or other such phrases.  I haven't seen it again recently, maybe someone finally got the message that the promotion of steroids has not been a great thing."

TomD:

It's been a terrible thing and it's not just marketing, it can be real. Didn't you hear about that golf course in Florida, I think, that was widely touted as Pine Valley on steroids? I'm not sure who designed and built it, maybe Fazio, but it appears they did use steroids on the course and liberally. They say today the course has massive amounts of black hair all over it and it looks like a big ape. Apparently the ersatz redan hole now has a nose on it about ten times longer than Pinnochio's too.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2006, 10:10:31 AM »
Voytek:  I thought you were referring to the marketing trend a couple of years back where courses were compared to "Pine Valley on steroids" or other such phrases.  I haven't seen it again recently, maybe someone finally got the message that the promotion of steroids has not been a great thing.

Tom: I am glad it made you look at my thread, though. ;)

Even though the steroid problem may be now a minor (or even non-existent) factor considering golf's admirable honor code,  I think it could be a problem in the future.

Pros will need the ever-increasing clubhead speed to succeed, and designer drugs are just the ticket, particularly if they also improve motor skills, which I believe they do.

That means more and more length, even after the equipment performance barrier had been reached.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 10:11:19 AM by Voytek Wilczak »

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2006, 10:50:56 AM »
I do remember reading that some PGA players were using some drug to improve putting rather than driving. Seems if settled them down and helped focus. I frankly cannot remember the details.

The lesson is when the money is as large as it has become in golf today people will go to extreme lengths to win. Sadly even in golf.

The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2006, 11:22:05 AM »

How much weight did Sergio, Tiger and Phil put on as they got a little older ?

I've self edited this as it could have seemed as if I was trying to imply something else.

If you look at a picture of college Tiger and the Tiger of today there's a striking difference. He talks a lot about working out and his gym routine.  
He's bulked up big time and he chooses clothes now that emphasise that so he doesn't look smaller than the competition.

However I believe in him, and maybe I'm naive, but he's the last one I'd suspect.  So just going on looks alone cannot tell us who is doing what. Hasn't it been the case in many sports that it's the second tier athletes trying to complete at the top, or those who are dominated by their coaches who choose to go down this route?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 02:37:09 PM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2006, 11:23:42 AM »
John,

I think you are referring to beta blockers. It's a drug generally prescribed by cardiologist to regulate the heart rate.

Attached is a link as to how beta blockers impact performance.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/BetaBlox.html

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2006, 12:23:25 PM »
I think you guys are discussing the wrong tour.  Have you noticed how many mustaches are on the LPGA tour? ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Gary_Mahanay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2006, 12:25:41 PM »
Tony Muldoon,

I know exactly what you're talking about.  I think about it often but he was still a pretty long hitter back when he was real skinny.  But the changes in apperance are very noticable... kind of like Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa.

Gary_Mahanay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2006, 12:48:44 PM »
Shivas,

Kind of like when your "cubby"  Sammy was with our Texas Rangers?

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2006, 07:09:34 PM »
Bill

Yes it was Beta Blockers that I was referring to. I read over the attached link and could see how they might well help in putting. I seem t orememebr a golfer noting that he had used them but I cannot remember who. Is it illegal in golf?  

My guess is that the bulk that steroids give would not be as helpful in golf as in other sports. Yet given the "skill" which these drugs are developed and deployed a variation of it may. Sad commentary

The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2006, 11:30:37 PM »
I remember in the 80s and early 90s reading articles about the rumors of steriod use in baseball and it was generally dismissed, with claims that a guy on steroids would the fine control over muscles necessary to adjust during a swing to hit a breaking ball, that kind of thing.  Well, that turned out to be a load of crap -- though maybe most of the players believed it until McGwire and Bonds started bashing home runs on a daily basis.

So I distrust any "common wisdom" that may hold that golfers can't benefit from steroids because the touch skills like putting would be hurt.  Given that distance for distance's sake has become a larger determinent in success lately due to the all carry/no roll driver trajectory making the FLOG strategy a feasible one, taking steroids and getting an extra 20 yards would seem to be a good strategy for a player who is struggling and needs an advantage.  Not worth the risk for a Tiger or Phil (who could believe Man Boobs takes steroids anyway ;))  But if 10 years from now a lot of players were doing them, or something similar, the leaders might have to do it to keep up.

I very much doubt the PGA tour tests for drugs, and I think it would take a major scandal to make them start.  Unlike team sports where there are owners and players that act as checks and balances to each other, the pro golfers run the tour, so they'd have to vote to have drug tests on themselves.  Somehow I don't see that happening unless they thought they'd lose TV money, because they probably feel they are above the indignity of peeing in a cup, and would hate the black eye it would bring to the tour when one of their number was caught.  And if they test for steroids, there might be calls to test for other stuff, and if they test for enough that's illegal or questionable that might start to affect more than just the John Dalys on the tour!

BTW, never heard of claims that steroids helped hand/eye coordination though, that's a new one on me.....where do I sign up? ;)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2006, 12:06:49 AM »
Voytek, the simple answer to your question is "no," nobody is testing in pro golf.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 12:06:59 AM by Brad Klein »

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2006, 02:31:11 AM »
Tom Doak and Tom Paul

I don't know about 'Pine Valley on steroids', but the members at Royal Sydney describe thier course post overhaul as 'viagara'.  It might not be longer, but it is harder! ;D

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2006, 02:43:52 AM »
James, I thought they were describing it as Amanda Vanstone: "one tough bitch"!

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA and steroids?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2006, 05:28:35 AM »
Chris

I thought an "Amanda Vanstone" was a duffed shot, you know, fat and short (and perhaps effective but not pretty :o).

 :D

James B
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 06:35:51 AM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)