[Michael Hayes]

...Solheim cup to follow!

[Jordan Wall]

Which is awesome awesome awesome.

Now the PGA will hopefully come back too!!

[Michael Hayes]

No. I am pretty sure the PGA will never grace the High Heavenly ground of Sahalee again.  The surrounding area has become so populated that there is no way to get the 30-40K daily onto the grounds.

The sr. open is a sure thing and the solheim cup is being worked out right now.

[Peter_Herreid]

Michael/Jordan (loved writing it that way!)---

As a fellow NW'er, and based on the experiences of the tournaments originally scheduled at Sahalee (2010 PGA) and Pumpkin Ridge (2006 US Snr Open), one should never consider any big-time tourney lined up for the NW as "sure thing"...

While each may eventually come off, I would not consider either of these a lock, when there are Herb Kohlers and the like around, with big aspirations and even bigger wallets...

Fun to think about, nonetheless...

[Michael Hayes]

Peter,

Your skeptisism has been faithfully recorded, correctly shared by the majority of PNW'ners.  I am merely scooping a story that is to be announced soon.  My source is solid enough, I think the 'official' announcement is a week away.

I drool over the potential field for the 2010 sr. open. in my backyard:  Couples, Faldo, Langer...

MH

[Tom Jefferson]

Michael........I appreciate your positive additude about Salahee, and the game in general.  Thanks!

I hope to visit Seattle this summer.........are you looking for an easy mark?

Tom

[Joel_Stewart]

I can't think of a course less deserving.   The folks at Sahalee are amazing at politics.

[PThomas]

Joel:  pls elaborate...althought I'm guessing you are thinking it's "the Medinah of the Northwest"?!?!?!

[Matt_Ward]

Ditto the comments from Joel -- hats off to the people of the Northwest because they are fine golf fans no doubt, but Sahalee really needs to contact the folks at the Professional Bowler's Association because this is one layout that is truly in the wrong place to host such important events.

It's too bad a layout like Desert Canyon in Orondo is so far off the beaten trail.

Paul T:

The answer to your question to Joel IMHO is an emphatic -- Yes! At least Medinah has a few holes of note architecturally.

[Michael Hayes]

I guess by default I will act as the defender for sahalee CC.  Between caddie/play experience, I have over 500 rounds of experience at the club.  In the days before any tree work, the golf course was kind of like playing at a typical 1950's housing club, left or right you were dead.  The trees went down to the forest floor.  The 1990's saw huge improvements to the course, with about 2000 trees removed and all the rest limbed up to accomadate gallery and infrastructure for the PGA.  Their is not a spot on the course were a player does not have the opportunity to advance the ball.  Now, serious tree work is being undertaken to allow for better turf conditions and airflow.  The results are impressive.  

I am not a tree hugger.  Look at how many trees I have taken at my own track.  

Sahalee CC is a great course,  top 100, who knows and who cares.  It is an elite NW course with great par 4's and quality terrain over which the game is played.  Conditioning rivals any other course...


Let the smackdown begin

[PjW]

Michael:

As the supt. from '77 through 79, I took out over 2000 trees.  I remember #8 East with only grass on about half of the green due to shade.  My crew used to work all winter removing trees, cutting and selling fire wood.  Your right in that it has evolved into an outstanding golf club.  I was back after the PGA to visit with Tom Wolfe and was amazed at the differences.  Its amazing what time and money will do.  I remember the club had the reputation as a brown bag club and memberships were sold in the Seattle Times for a few hundred dollars.  Its good to see it hold its own with all the newer golf courses that have been built in the past few years.  

Phil

[Peter_Herreid]

One thing I get very bored of is listening to the "Well, if it were in the [insert here--Phila/NYC/LI/Chicago/whatever] area it wouldn't make the top 50"  attitude...

The fact is that Sahalee wouldn't, but it isn't!

In reality there probably isn't a course within 350 miles of here that should make any Top 50 or Top 100 lists, which (on the one hand) makes me sad, but (on the other hand) really who cares!  Everything in life is cyclical, and perhaps some truly ground-breaking courses will be built up here in the next half-century, and this won't be an issue in 2050.

What difference does it make where the PGA puts their tournament really--if they want to go to cutting edge places, great--if they want to grab the cash and secure sites for PGAs/Ryder Cups, great---I think they should be, and their sites should be, more distinct from the US Open rota anyway.  Their course set-ups seem to suggest a gentle trend in this location...

My like/not so like opinion of Sahalee is that the routing and individual holes are not particularly inspiring, in my opinion.  The blueprint of some Ted Robinson holes in Palm Desert, the East Bay, etc. is nearly identical to the ones at Sahalee, so I'm not sure that the course on the ground is particularly note-worthy.  If that were the only criteria for tournament selection, then I think Sahalee comes up short...

However, the visual presentation of Sahalee to the golfer and to the TV viewer is quite stunning, and I would say is quite different than the run of the mill TPC-clone we get so often for these tourneys.  How many times to we all complain about the same old thing on these televised tourneys?

Sahalee is a unique site, in that regard, and the contrasts offered visually are the best part of the track.  The conditioning would be next, and that continues to improve over time.  While I would not recommend a special trip to come see Sahalee, I would also not suggest anyone skip it on a golfing trip to the NW.  Those trees are unbelievable in their scope, and present a near-religious experience not unlike walking through the Muir Woods in Marin, for example...

Whenever I am there, I just let the golf course details just flow along, and instead relish the opportunity to be in a different spot, enjoying a different type of golf experience, one that mirrors its location in the NW very nicely.

I also note that we spend a lot of time complaining about courses which are forced into their surrounds, a "links' course in a mountain setting, a "desert"-type target course in an urban/suburban setting, etc. Sahalee does not do that in the least, from the conditioning, which is NW green, to the architecture of the surrounding houses ("daylight ramblers" abound), to the amazing trees...

I would applaud Sahalee and the members for maintaining a course/club that is quite clearly uniquely Seattle---Not necessarily a Top 100 course, or even a "major-worthy" course, at least in my opinion--but a "noteworthy" club nonetheless...

Fair assessment?

[Steve_Lovett]

Matt Ward,

Do you think that Desert Canyon (location notwithstanding) is a superior venue to host an event as compared with Sahalee?  Please explain.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Sahalee should be commended for a dogged membership that has seen fit to stay involved in trying to host big time events. That's not my point. The issue is with a mediocre design that is still clogged with trees and really produces nothing more than ho-hum golf for the bulk of the 18 holes.

I frankly get peeved when people take umbrage at the fact that the best courses are elsewhere and unfortunately the region of the Northwest is still in seach of a layout that hands down is a bonafide winner through and through.

I especially like Desert Canyon because it does have enough width and length -- minus the trees dominating the layout. I certainly believe it would do just as well in hosting a Sr. Open as any other course including Sahalee for those that are in the Northwest area of the USA.

Sahalee is a fine course but from an architectural perspective given the ones I have played in my lifetime in the USA it's nothing more than a bit beyond average. You can dress up a pig in a tuxedo but the end result it's still a pig. Sahalee isn't by pure definition a pig but it's far from the kind of layouts that merit such standing -- especially when compared to a layout of vintage like Five Farms, to name just one.

Kudos to the pull / tenacity of the membership and there's no doubt that NW golfers should have venues for big time events. I just don't believe Sahalee is at the highest of levels. It's no different than the Seahawks believing they get no respect. Well -- they don't get it because they have not earned it thus far.

No doubt the location in Orondo will never provide a major event because of the remoteness and the inability to have a truly committed membership -- since Desert Canyon is a public course.

[Sean Leary]

I especially like Desert Canyon because it does have enough width and length -- minus the trees dominating the layout. I certainly believe it would do just as well in hosting a Sr. Open as any other course including Sahalee for those that are in the Northwest area of the USA.

Now I have heard it all.  Matt, that is just nuts.

First of all, Desert Canyon isn't in the same league as Sahalee as a golf course. It just isn't, tree hating or no tree hating. While Sahalee does not compare to the classics like Five Farms, it is certainly head and shoulders above Desert Freaking Canyon.

Second, Desert Canyon might be the most unwalkable course in the state.  In fact, I would venture to guess that no one has ever walked it in it's history.  Matt, how many times have you played it. I'm guessing once, for you to make this comment.

Dr. Herreid has eloquently described the value of Sahalee as a championship track.  It is uniquely Seattle. And while Sahalee is not worthy of an Open, a Senior Open is perfect.  The USGA wants to bring it's championships to different parts of the country, and for this part, it is clearly the best for tournament play. The weather is perfect in the summer and the crew at Sahalee does a great job getting the conditions good for tournament play (it has been spotty the rest of the year in the past)

Michael Hayes,

Any idea if the Tournament at Snoq. Ridge would be skipped that year (assuming it lasts that long)? Two senior tournaments  is one too many for Seattle.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

As stated Desert Canyon, as beautiful as it may be, is no championship golf course.  Unwalkable, blind shots, and limited access make it unlikely at best.

The sad state of affairs in the State of Washington as it concerns golf architecture has not been improved greatly despite the additions of Alderra and Snoqualmie Ridge, both courses I like but still lacking in true greatness.  The new RT Jones II course at Chambers Bay is already showing showing signs of dull modern design and final shaping has not begun.  Even Doak's Tumble Creek has lacked any of the early fervor his other new designs seem to attract ( I have not played it yet).  

While Sahalee and Olympic/Gold mountain attract some attention, I must still wonder what me may have done to anger the Gods so that they prevent us from having a truly great course in an area of such natural beauty.

[Mike Hendren]

I teach at a banking school at UDub for a week each Sept. and get the opportunity to play two rounds of golf.  To date, Alderra, Snoqualmie Ridge, Gold Mountain and Fircrest.  

Alderra is a notch up for Tom Fazio (the man does have a first name, you know) and Macan's Fircrest was my favorite course seen last year, but I'm biased in favor of such sporty tracks.  Gold Mountain is a fun and challenging public option and while Snoqualimie Ridge is a little disapointing architecturally, the views on the back nine are breathtaking and awe-inspiring (a very good thing).

Matt was quick to back off his pig analogy, but that's not the same as deleting it altogether now, is it?  Peter hits the nail on the head for this outsider:  There is a unique Seatleness to these courses that is different and refreshing.  One could import greater architecture, but it might still be trumped by God's handiwork in the region.  

Did I saw how much I loved Fircrest?

I look forward to two more courses on my next visit.  That and a cold one with Sean et al.

Mike  

[Sean Leary]

Mike,

Beers are already a chillin'. Now if I could only find a decent bbq joint to take you to....

Sean

PS. When UT comes to play the Huskies in a couple of years, you oughta come out for the game and a round or two.  While we can't hang in terms of tailgating with the likes of the folks in Knoxville, at least we can do it on boats outside the stadium.

[Michael Hayes]

Sahalee as a golf course is still young, only 35 years old.  I for one, am very happy with the golf course that it has become.  How long was NLGA tweaked before it was "finished".  How long was it until NLGA was a "classic"  How Sahalee compares to the "classics" interests me in the least.  The PNW is full of wonderful, walkable, interesting golf courses.  Tacoma, Fircrest, Oakbrook, Seattle, Waverly, Portland, Eastmorland, Eugene, Broadmor, Alderra, Royal Oaks, Spokane, Manito, Walla Walla, Gold Mountain, Victoria, Capilano, and many more all relfect the natural beauty of the surrondings.  If you haven't experienced these courses on a spectacular August morning, then you have not and will not understand that there is no void of "great golf" in the PNW.

Should respect be given to the PNW.  No Way!... Please don't bother, Far Hills is far away, Thankfully.  It is bad enough that all the non-golfing Californians are moving into town already.  Isolation suits the NW just fine thank you.  

In the 1990's Oregon became the favorite son on the USGA, thanks in large part to the Jacobson family.  I believe over a half dozen USGA national level events were contested in the state.  Now it looks to be Washington's turn.  2006 will feature the USGA Girls Junior Am at Tacoma CC.  If you haven't seen Tacoma you don't know what you are missing. V. Macan thoughtfully routed a wonderfull course through some beautiful Oak groves on the best soil for golf around...It is the only golf course I know of in the Puget sound region that has no cart paths, it is that dry.  

I give an open invitaion to anyone from CGA, come on up in August, I will show you some amazing golf...

Plus the micro brews are definitly top 10...

Michael Hayes

Edit--  I know I have left off over a dozen courses worth mention here, but I must add 2.  Astoria and Gearhart

[Mike Hendren]

Sean,

UW and UT might be the only college stadiums in the country accessible by boat.

Perhaps I'll sail in with the Vol Navy.  Let's see, Tennessee River to Ohio River to Mississippi River through Panama Canal.  Better leave today.



Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Sean, et al:

Let's drop the predictable and sad parochialism about the Northwest. This IS NOT about the following:

1). The dogged nature of Sahalee's membership

2). The thirst of golf fans in the region to see the world's best players.

This is about the reality of a lack of world class sites in that part of the country. The idea that major events need to be doled out as some sort of geographical balancing act is rubbish and flies in the face of what a national championship is about -- testing the world's best players on venues of equal or beyond status. Going to so-so designs doesn't help raise the bar -- it lowers it IMHO.

Sahalee is not there for me purely from an architectural perspective -- allow me to link it with a course in my backyard Baltusrol. Baltusrol has a tenacious membership and is really in love in hosting big time events. Sadly, the Lower layout is a bore and notwithstanding Mickelson's triumph this past August the layout is nothing more than ho-hum from a design perspective. Ditto Sahalee.

It is choke full of woods and frankly one hole looks the same as the next. I believe too many of the Sahalee proponents have tree-itis because they can't see the limitations of the architecture which is clearly not present.

I stand behind Desert Canyon -- the course is well done by Jack Frei and frankly it gets dissed because it's not in a large metro area, has no private membership with connections and is simply a course few have played.

Desert Canyon possesses a site that is light years beyond Sahalee and the routing, green shapes / sizes and variety of holes is also a clear notch or two beyond. I would love to see the boys handle the 660+ yard plus par-5 in a big time event.

Sean -- for your edification I have played Sahalee three times and Desert Cayon an equal number of times. Please don't assume that this Jersey boy only makes one time visits to courses across the country. I don't.

I salute the Sahalee membership again but the Northwest is in dire need of a big time layout with architectural heft -- Sahalee isn't it for sure in my mind. Let's try to understand the process of the politics in major event selections and the separate issue of architectural pedigree. Having success with the former doesn't automatically convey success with the latter.

One last thing -- when you raise the isue about walkability that was not what Steve L asked me to explain.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Sean,

     Have you tried Dixie's BBQ?  In other words have you met the Man?  

[Tim Leahy]

PS. When UT comes to play the Huskies in a couple of years, you oughta come out for the game and a round or two.  While we can't hang in terms of tailgating with the likes of the folks in Knoxville, at least we can do it on boats outside the stadium.

Since you brought up UW, I wonder what your opinion of Tytanic Willingham is. As a diehard ND fan I wouldn't wish him on any program that wants to contend for a NC. Good man, bad coach and recruiter.

[Sean Leary]

Tim,

You said it all.  They needed a name and someone with a strong character reputation and he was available.  I can't figure out why he couldn't recruit at ND, but he has a tough road to hoe here. I think they will be in the dumps for a few years anyway...

[Steve_Lovett]

Matt,

I think Sahalee is a worthy championship golf course.  Granted, it falls far behind the premier major championship venues of this country and is not necessarily an architectural marvel.  I played there many times in high school in the early-mid 80's, and it is good to hear that it has benefitted from tree work in recent years.  It's still hard to dispute that it is played through heavily tree lined corridors - and the greens are less-than inspired compared with many of the great national championship caliber courses.

I'm surprised to hear you consider Desert Canyon in a championship venue discussion.  There are not a number of top-notch major championship venues in the northwest, and I don't believe the golf course at Desert Canyon offers a championship venue either - at least not on a national basis.  While it has space and tremendous views (not to mention an incredible par-5 6th hole) there are too many awkward and ordinary holes.  And - to suggest it for such an event I think walkability is relevant.  I enjoy playing it, but  I think it's overrated as compared with it's lofty ranking among Washington's top rank courses.

Having said that, I would love to see how the pro's handle the 6th, especially in reasonably windy conditions.  To my knowledge, there isn't another hole quite like it anywhere.  

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