[Jason Topp]

  Rather than threadjack the Barnbougle thread, I thought I would start this one.  I've never seen Doak's book and am not sure I have a handle on the scale, but here is my impression of some I have played:

10
The Old Course
Sand Hills
Royal Melbourne West
Ballybunion Old

9
Lahinch
Prestwick
Pebble Beach

8
Kingston Heath
New South Wales
Interlachen
Barnbougle
Wildhorse
N Berwick
Harvester
Wakonda
Sutton Bay
TPC Sawgrass
Spyglass
Quarry - Giant's Ridge
Classic at Maddens
Harbour Town

7
Tralee
Newcastle
Hazeltine
Cog Hill
Ventana Canyon
Big Fish

6
Ballybunion Cashen
Doonbeg
Dooks
Old Head


Any disputes on this list?  Anyone have their own?

[redanman]

You are pretty generous with your "eights".

Spyglass, Harbour Town, Sutton Bay and  even Wildhorse (well, you do have to travel 100 miles to get to it...) are stretches.  Even if they once were 8's (SG and HT) I hardly think they are any longer

[David_Elvins]

Lahinch and Prestwick were only 8s.  Sand Hills wasnt ranked in the book but I think he has called it a 10 on here.  

[Jason Topp]

Lahinch and Prestwick were only 8s.  Sand Hills wasnt ranked in the book but I think he has called it a 10 on here.  

I wonder if recent changes would elevate Lahinch.

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd rate Cashen New higher, Classic at Madden a little lower, The Quarry higher, and Cog Hill higher.

[A_Clay_Man]

Cary, I was under the impression DubsDread was too high. But I have no idea what the Doak scale is.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam - here's Doak Scale in a nutshell:

0: so contrived and unnatural, cannot recommend under any circumstances.

1: Very basic course; clear architectural malpractice and/or
poor maintenance. Avoid even if desperate for a game.

2: mediocre course with little architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. (Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer).

3: about the level of the avg. course in the world.

4: modestly interesting; with at least a couple of distinctive holes or some scenic interest. Also reserved for some very good courses which are much too short or narrow to  provide sufficient chalenge for low-handicappers.

5: Well above the avg. course, but the middle of this scale. A good course if in the vicinity, but not worth setting aside a day to visit.

6:  A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

7:  An excellent course, worth checking out if within 50-100 miles. You can expect sound design; interesting hiles; good conditions and a pretty setting; if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8:  One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special.

9:  Outstanding course. One of the best in the world with no weaknesses. Should see in your lifetime.

10: Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.


It's used so often in here, I saved this on a word doc long ago.

I'd put Dubsdread closer to 8 than to 7.... but that's just me.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Thank You TH. That's interesting that it seems based on regionalality. I therefore can agree with a 7 under that criterion. I wonder what you consider to be so special at #4, that brings it to an 8?

[redanman]

Actually, Adam, TD specifically states that some select areas will have a plethora of six & sevens and up whilst others have none.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thank You TH. That's interesting that it seems based on regionalality. I therefore can agree with a 7 under that criterion. I wonder what you consider to be so special at #4, that brings it to an 8?

I just go by Doak's words if asked.  I did travel to Chicago and drove way the hell out to where Cog Hill is just to play that course, and to me it's not a stretch to say it's "one of the very best in the region".  Thus by definition it's more of an 8 than a 7 for me....  Given I don't like to cheat and use half numbers, I'd round to 8.  But I certainly wouldn't argue with one who called it a 7.  Less than that seems too low.

But this of course very subjective, and yes, based on regionality.  Reasonable minds are guaranteed to differ on how this comes out for them.

TH

[Gene Greco]

  Other 10s according to The Confidential Guide:

Royal Dornoch
NGLA
Cypress Point
Pacific Dunes
Pinehurst #2
Muirfield
Merion
Pine Valley

[Tom Huckaby]

 Other 10s:

Royal Dornoch
NGLA
Cypress Point
Pacific Dunes
Pinehurst #2
Muirfield

Never been to Pinehurst, but I wouldn't argue re the others, outside of perhaps if one gives too many 10s it devalues that figure... Hell I can't that mattering to ME - my world has lots of 10s - but to others it might.

Interesting no inclusion of Shinnecock though, Dr. Gene.  

TH

[ed_getka]

I still haven't seen a 10." If you skip even one hole you will miss something worth seeing." Every course I've played has at least one skippable hole. Although the green of an otherwise mundane hole qualifies as something worth seeing.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - good call - that would disqualify most courses from being 10s.

But think about the one's posited so far... including those by Gene... not many missable golf holes on any of them.

It's gonna depend on how one defines the term.  I can tell you without hesitancy there is not one hole I'd skip at Sand Hills, for example... same goes for Cypress Point... NGLA... Dornoch... but obviously others could cite examples, and my standards are likely quite lower.

TH

[cary lichtenstein]

Adam:

Coghill is definitely an 8 on Doak's scale to me. I have played it well over 100 times while I lived in Chicago inspite of it being a min of an hours drive to get to when my home course was 5 minutes, and there were no greens fees at my home course.

I took my kids, my dad, other couples, and my guy games and everyone loved the day, inspite of the sand being way too sof for many years.

I thought Dick Wilson did a wonderful job there.

[Gene Greco]

Tom, Ed:

   Those "10s" are the ones listed in Tom Doak's book.

He has also gone on to say on this website that he would include Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes among the courses which one should not miss a hole - a 10.

Shinnecock is not a 10 according to The Confidential Guide.

Will Barnbougle Dunes or Ballyneal be a 10?

 

[Steve_Roths]

Sutton Bay?  Maybe a 6.

Friars Head is probably a 8.8 or 9 if we are rounding.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Gene:  aha, now 'tis I giving the mea culpas.

But what the hell does Doak know anyway.  

I'm interested in how YOU would place these.  Care to make a little list?

And yes, it will be very interesting to see how those courses shake down.  Can Tom D. give himself that many 10s?

 

[Sean_A]

Seems to me these 10s, 9s and 8s get tossed around an awful lot.  I reckon I must be much tougher in evaluations cuz I don't think I have seen higher than an 8 tops, probably more like a 7.  The only three courses I have seen that I would contemplate giving an 8 are Dornoch, North Berwick and Enniscrone.

I think there are probably only a handful of 9s in the world and I doubt a true 10 exists, but I would love to be proven wrong.  

Ciao

Sean

[Tom Huckaby]

I think there are probably only a handful of 9s in the world and I doubt a true 10 exists, but I would love to be proven wrong.  

Is this a deftly worded ploy to get to Sand Hills?  

Because methinks if you are to be proven wrong, this is where it will happen.  Either that or NGLA.  I don't see it occurring at Cypress nor any of the others, not if you find Dornoch to be "only" an 8.  But those two do seem to me to be foolproof.

[Sean_A]

Huckleberry

All in all I can't complain.  I am more fortunate than most even if there is no chance of getting to any of my 3 wannaplays in the States. This list had been solid for many a year, but folks on this site have convinced me NGLA should be one of the 3.  

8 or no, I still think Dornoch is probably the best course I have seen.  

Ciao

Sean

[Jason Topp]

Is this a deftly worded ploy to get to Sand Hills?  

Because methinks if you are to be proven wrong, this is where it will happen.  Either that or NGLA.  I don't see it occurring at Cypress nor any of the others, not if you find Dornoch to be "only" an 8.  But those two do seem to me to be foolproof.

If Sand Hills is not a 10, I don't think one exists.  The more I think about it, the more I am convinced it is the best I have played.  

I'm surprised at the support for Cog Hill.  I really enjoy the course, but have heard many criticisms on this site.

I'm also surprised at the people who want to downgrade Sutton Bay.  I thought 17 and 18 were average but the rest of the holes excellent with the only drawback being that you essentially go straight out and straight back on holes 3-16.

Where is Pasatiempo?  My first thought is 7, but I could be convinced of 8.  The front nine is just a bit squeezed together and repetitive for a higher ranking in my view.

[Gene Greco]

Gene:  aha, now 'tis I giving the mea culpas.

But what the hell does Doak know anyway.  

I'm interested in how YOU would place these.  Care to make a little list?

And yes, it will be very interesting to see how those courses shake down.  Can Tom D. give himself that many 10s?

 

Sand Hills
The National Golf Links of America
Pine Valley
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
Royal Melbourne
Cypress Point

End of "little list."


Now if you ask me for 3 star Michelins according to Rich Goodale...........the list is much longer.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

I can definitely respect a man who says Dornoch is the best course he's ever seen.  Hell get me in the right mood and I might say the same thing.  It's right up there, that's for sure.

Jason - welcome to the Sand Hills is best brotherhood.  The fraternity is small but growing.  I've said many times I am convinced it is the best course on the planet.

Gene - Can't argue with any of your 10s, that's for sure.  And yes, Rich's wimpy scale would allow for many more at the top without a doubt.  

[Glenn Spencer]

It has been 12 years since The Golf Club has had to endure my presence, but would someone offer up as to why it would not be a 10.

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