[paul cowley]

I have just finished reading his article in Golf World suggesting that Tour might benefit if players were not allowed to use distance measurements of any kind in their round.....in an attempt to bring back a skill set that is no longer found in modern competition ...The ability to read the course and feel the shot that needs to be played has been lost and exchanged for the security of numbers when making a club selection.

I was excited by Brads writing about 'eyeballing' because it brought back memories of a trip to Scotland where I played all my rounds without yardage or a caddy and by the second day I began to revel in having to read and really look at the course for clues in choosing a club.....it came down to 'this feels like a little low 5 iron' or the like and I found I was starting to hit all sorts of inventive shots that just seemed to 'feel' right...and it didn't hurt my game, in fact I felt more involved than ever.

....but now I'm depressed because I know the genie will never fit back in that bottle....but it was fun to briefly fantasize about the game that was.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm depressed because I know the genie will never fit back in that bottle....but it was fun to briefly fantasize about the game that was.

And will be again...soon...

In HolyDoak

[Gene Greco]

Guess what?  You can do that whenever you want.  Any time you want.  I do it all the time.  You just have to REFUSE to look at sprinklerheads or yardage posts or scorecards.  

To be perfectly blunt, who cares if the Tour guys enjoy the game?  I don't care if other people enjoy the game.  Frankly, I wish they all hated it, so the course would always be wide open...  

My sentiments, exactly.

Do PGA Tour pros enjoy the game of golf??

[Gene Greco]

I'm depressed because I know the genie will never fit back in that bottle....but it was fun to briefly fantasize about the game that was.

And will be again...soon...

In HolyDoak

Adam:

   I believe now is a good time to pass the torch to you.

The torch originally was held by Bernard Darwin and his love for Aberdovey, then given to Rich Goodale - Royal Dornoch, Mike Vegis - Kiawah and then to me and the great Sand Hills Golf Club.

You even moved to be closer to the course!!!!

You are smitten, Boy.

[A_Clay_Man]

Yes, Gene, I am. It isn't often one gets to see something as thoughtful as OUR courses.

 

[paul cowley]

Shivas....my lament was more that play as a group is not like it was pre 60's when Jack came along with his yardage books and all that has progressed since then until now with laser aids being allowed in regional competition....and the trickle down emulated affect on the masses....I'm only 53 but I remember well when my muny planted  trees at 150 yds [because I planted them when I was sixteen and got ten bucks a tree to do it....flowering crab apples].

...putting numbers on sprinkler heads hadn't been thought of as yet at Western Turnpike but someone got around to painting them on about 10 yrs later.
And I know I can go around and ignore the aids but its harder to ignore those playing around me that choose to pay close attention to them.

[paul cowley]

....yes Shivas...remove the mysteries and what have you got?

 

[TEPaul]

Paul:

You have a great point there and there sure is a difference but not many really do it anymore because they just don't have to.

I remember in the early 1950s watching my Dad and his friends play that way---they were all good players and they were playing at a time that was just about the end of the "shot-makers". For that reason I've always referred to my Dad as a "transition" golfer because he spanned the time golfers used to play be eye and the time they really started using yardages but back then they did it for themselves. When they played by eye it seems to me they played a lot of different shots---a lot more on the ground which if you think about it is probably a bit easier and safer if you don't know a distance. To play "by eye" it sure helps too if a golf course is firm, in my opinion.

When my Dad died around 1991 and I was cleaning his house out I found these boxes that had it seemed like hundreds of little notebooks in them. They were his own little yardage books he made himself on courses he played tournaments. Incredibly I didn't keep them.

By the way, he played a lot of his golf at Piping Rock and here's a bit of trivia for you on this subject. The pro there when I was last there was Tom Nieporte and he was the last tourning pro to win on tour who always played golf just "by eye".

But you're so right, if you play a course you don't know just "by eye" the course engages you a whole lot more than if you just go by the numbers. If you think about it how could it be otherwise?

[Dan_Callahan]

I don't really get the fascination with playing an unmarked course. Part of the fun of the game for me is in the execution of shots—knowing I have 150 yards to an elevated green with a cross wind, using all of that information to determine the kind of shot I need to play, and then executing (that last part tends not to happen, but there is always the chance). Not knowing the yardage adds too much guesswork for this simple brain.

[paul cowley]

Dan....there can be a lot of pleasure gained from pulling off a shot that you had to guess at and finding out you were right....its another level of execution...more than knowing the yardage required and then it being just a matter of whether or not you execute your shot.

I think it sharpens your sense of play....gets you out of the " OK, wheres the sprinkler?...162, yea OK, that's a smooth 7"....

TomP....didn't you tell me you started playing later in life, because I felt for sure you would remember playing in the days before distance aids....maybe you ought to relate that story.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Speaking of this kind of thing I just thought of something pretty interesting.

PVGC is one of the few courses I know of where just about all those who play it can't really go by yardage numbers all that easily and that is because there aren't any yardage numbers anywhere on the course.

The way it's always done there is the sprinkler-heads have little numbers on them that are only a reference for the caddies to check what the yardage numbers are in their little books (most of them know the actuals of everything in their heads anyway).

They will tell you what the yardage is on any shot if you want but most always they just say "it plays like....." (some yardage or some club) and it's certainly not always the actual yardage you have.

It's pretty cool to play that way really and it obviously means one sort of engages with the course a lot more than if they just made actual yardages available to the golfer.

By the way, this kind of thing at PVGC is what made that hilarious story of the famously irreverent caddie, Rocky Carbone, and the two Japanese guys he was caddie for. One was big and the other little and Rocky was basically just handing them the club they needed. One on hole he hands one of the Japanese guys a 5 iron and he hits it about 40 yards over the green and just glares at Rocky and Rocky says;

"Whoops, right club, wrong Jap."

[Dan Herrmann]

I read Brad's article again this morning.  It's awesome.

But I think "we're" in a small minority here.  I can't tell you how we have to keep fighting at French Creek to keep people from putting colored flags to indicate hole location.  How people want more yardage markers, etc...

Heck - I know I'm not good enough to make a difference anyway...  (and neither are 95% of the other folks too)

[Willie_Dow]

Wasn't the reason for the yardage instrumentation an effort to speed up play ?

The quickest rounds I remember were played by feeling the distance, and just hitting the ball.

Strange way to adjust for Brad's "Tyranny of Yardage".

[Brad Klein]

Willie,

I'm not sure which way to interpret your last line. But you are certainly correct that yardage devices were introduced to speed up play. LOng after it became evident that golfers spent too much time tromping all over fairwways in search of sprinkler heads, it's now been assumed that hand-held distance devices will work better instead. However, some of these devices provide the oppotunity to hone in on any yardagez to any fixed point, meaning that with certain brands, golfers will be searching for way more information than is really relevent.

My point in the GW column, however, had more to do with skill level and how the game is changing. My point is that when you play by numbers, feel is lost, and so is contact with the golf course.

Interestingly, many devices introduced to speed up play really don't because of how they are adopted by golfers. Carts don't have much impact on pace of play, for example, and I cannot imagine that the kind of player who feels it necessary to rely upon hand-held laser distance devices will play any faster, either. I would welcome some empirical data on this, though.

[wsmorrison]

One of the things I like about courses with a lot of elevation change, like Rolling Green GC, is that on most of the holes it doesn't matter what the yardage is on the sprinkler head, you have to have a sense for the playing yardage and that connects you much closer to the golf course and the architecture.  The indicated yardage on the sprinkler heads are meaningless for most, especially newcomers as the elevation change makes playing by yardage exceedingly difficult.

[JohnV]

Dan....there can be a lot of pleasure gained from pulling off a shot that you had to guess at and finding out you were right....its another level of execution...more than knowing the yardage required and then it being just a matter of whether or not you execute your shot.

Paul, I'm not saying I disagree with you, but do you get a lot of pleasure when you hit a "perfect" shot for your estimate of the yardage and it comes up 10 yards short in a bunker because you guessed wrong?

Yardage is rarely the only factor in a shot.  Knowing the yardage doesn't tell a person the effect of elevation, firmness of the green, wind, type of lie etc.  There are still plenty of variables that have to be taken in before a "perfect" shot can be made.

The advantage of having readily available yardages is that it does take some edge away from those who have played a course more frequently.  In tournaments that seems to be a good compromise to me.

It would make my job easier when I run a tournament if all I had to do was hand a player a blank card with 18 boxes on it and places for his name and two signatures.  No yardages, no hole location sheets, no players yelling at me because we got one location wrong.  I like it.

[paul cowley]

John ...I like that too as it makes a person more accountable for his own actions and leaves less to blame on others.

...and if I had guessed my yardage and left a "perfect" shot 10 yards short in a bunker, well, I might just have to raise my standard for perfection to avoid a similar shot the next time.

[peter_p]

    I got to play Bandon Dunes without any yardages. It was an absolute blast. Trying  to figure out what to hit to avoid hazards really gets you into the moment. Other players shots take on more meaning. Golfing becomes more of a group activity.
    For a couple of years I've been trying without suceess to have my club hold a "tournament" where all yardage aids are prohibited. Maybe Brad's article will turn the tables.
   

[Willie_Dow]

Brad

Not having read your article, but recalling "Rough Meditations" chapter on Architectural Elements you mention The Tyranny of Yardage.  It is good to see you are probably on the same page as when you wrote the book.

Wasn't it around 1950 at the North South when Nicklaus learned from that guy from the west who paced off yardages on the #2 course ?  Can't think of his name right now, but I think it was the real beginning of slow golf.

[Willie_Dow]

Dean Andrews !

[Willie_Dow]

No !  Gene Andrews

[Brad Klein]

Willie, I'm glad you think it's a virtue that I haven't changed my views in nine years, just dug in deeper. Wish my wife thought the same of me for that.

By the way, I have an expanded, paperback edition of "Rough Meditations" coming out next month, and it keeps that "Tyranny of Yardages" essay.

As for Nicklaus, in 1950 he was ten years old, so I wonder if it was a later North-South. Yardages on the PGA Tour were first used by Jack Fleck in the mid-late 1950s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

All of the diagrams/maps, calculations and devices intended to speed up the game have only served to slow it down.

Yardage markers, indicators and devices are no longer retained to speed up play, they're security blankets because golfers have become so dependent on artificial indicators that they've lost the ability to "eyeball" distance, and can't make a confident judgement absent their crutches.

If you want to observe a riot in the making, hide in the closet of the next green committee meeting when someone proposes removing all distance indicators.

I thought that Nicklaus learned from Gene Andrews during a USGA Amateur ?

[Brad Klein]

Pat,

for someone who apparently didn't read the GW column, you come very close to making my case.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

That's why I applaud Ken Bakst's attempts to alter the "culture" of golf as we know it.

I wonder if Sebonack will have yardage indicators.

I made a wager with a fellow member.
He insisted that indicators be put out, either in print or on the course that would indicate where the holes were located, even on greens that were clearly visible.  Only two aren't.

On one particular hole, a 187 yard, slightly uphill par three,
I told him that hole location was irrelevant.  He insisted that it helped him determine what club to hit.  I then asked him how many times he hit the green.  He said well over 50 %.
I then asked him how much he would like to bet on the under, and if he'd like to play every day.

With a green 27 yards deep, slightly sloping from low front to high back, I told him that there was A PRIME location that he should hit to every time, and it was the front center of the green, 182.5 yards from the tee.

All too often, golfers feel that they possess more talent than their handicap reflects, and that if the PGA Tour Pros do something, they should do the same thing.

I had other golfers insist that I insert 100, 150, 200 and 250 blocks in the middle of the fairway despite the fact that they couldn't hit the ball more than 180 yards, but, they felt that they were entitled to the information, no matter how irrelevant it was to their game.

Something that will make my day.
Four golfers, armed with distance devices, debating which one has the right yardage.  These devices will only slow up play and I'm shocked that the USGA caved on the issue.

It seems that they'd rather go along with popular trends then take a position that was for "The good of the game"

P.S.

My reading ability remains sharp.
Recall is fuzzy.

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