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Jordan Wall

If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« on: January 15, 2006, 11:43:30 AM »
When I say cartpath's, I mean the real pavement cartpath's, not the ones with a dirt road that look natural.  I have been doing some reading and some studying, and it seems to me that some of the best courses do not have cartpaths, or at least the paved ones.  I am no one to say that there are no great courses that have cart paths, and I am also nobody to judge courses, and that is not my intent, but it seems to me many of the great courses have no cartpaths (many I have only seen pictures of though).

In a previous thread Tom Doak mentioned that he charged cutsomers 50,000 dollars less if he did not have to put in a cartpath.  To me that would be a very big sum of money.  And just to make a golf course better.  So my question stands.  But, also since I have not played many great courses, or courses I have heard are great, are there any really good and great courses that uses cartpaths that dont blend in, and are paved??  What if all courses made there cart paths blend in??  Would this make the course and the architecture better??  And, is it possible for a cart path to detract from the architecture of a course??  Thanks guys!



« Last Edit: January 15, 2006, 11:44:08 AM by Jordan Wall »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2006, 11:47:01 AM »
Jordan,

Would Pebble Beach qualify as great ?

You have to seperate the issues and understand that many golf courses were designed before golf carts were invented.

But, like it or not, in certain circumstances, it's either create paths or destroy the areas of play.
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Tom_Doak

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2006, 11:51:55 AM »
Jordan:

I do think the absence of cart paths makes the golf course much more attractive, and also that paths can sometimes get in the way of designing a hole the way you want to.

But, my discount on pricing is also about believing that golf is a walking game, and about not having to deal with cart path decisions on site.

Is it possible for a cart path to distract from the architecture of the course?  Absolutely!  Out of the top 50 courses in the world, only 3 have wall to wall paths.  In the 25,000 courses below that, the percentage is quite a bit higher.
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Garland Bayley

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2006, 12:39:27 PM »
A is F
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

ed_getka

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2006, 12:53:37 PM »
I wasn't aware that Tom charges less when he doesn't have to work in a cartpath. That is very cool, way to back up your convictions of golf being a walking game Tom. :) In thinking through my favorite courses I can't think of one that has cartpaths throughout. Rustic may but I'm not sure as they don't stick out in my mind. Actually thinking more about it I think the path does go all the way around, and I consider Rustic Canyon's architecture to be well above average.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Forrest Richardson

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 09:34:55 PM »
Two points:

a — Many "great" courses receive very little play, and therefore have no use for a network of paths

b — Does the Road Hole, then, qualify as a black mark against The Old Course...?!
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jordan Wall

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 09:37:54 PM »
Quote from: Forrest Richardson on January 16, 2006, 09:34:55 PM
Two points:

b — Does the Road Hole, then, qualify as a black mark against The Old Course...?!

Theres a difference between a cartpath and a road...especially on a hole like the road hole!!
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mike_beene

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 09:46:42 PM »
Wall to wall cartpaths don't bother me.I almost always walk,but I don't seem to notice paths.I am stumped trying to remember which old courses have them and which don't.In my part of the world they are common.The Old Course actually has paths the marshal's use down the right of most of the outward nine.
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Forrest Richardson

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 10:04:32 PM »
However, if golf carts were a mode of transport in days-gone-by, then certainly we would have seen an integration of such trails with courses.

I have longed for an alternative to the concrete path. At a current project we are using integral color, as we did at Phantom Horse in 1985 with very dark red-ish / pink paths.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

mike_beene

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2006, 10:12:14 PM »
Have you seen attempts to blend colors that looked worse than what you started with.The green bridges at Augusta don't look good to my redneck eyes.
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Forrest Richardson

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2006, 10:22:30 PM »
We are trying a green-ish color — which I hope will work well with the sagebrush and natural terrain. I hope!
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

David Druzisky

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 07:27:06 PM »
Jordan,

Paths just outright stink! Unfortunately in many cases they are a necessary evil.  If done correctly they can be okay.  It is often the hardest on the great sites.  You don't want to move dirt just to hide them.  It is those sites that usually also translate to the best courses. Carts have done to golf what the automobile has done to society.

Many architects shy away from taking on the cart paths within their designs because of liability.  I have not hit that point yet but I have not been sued - yet.  If they are going to go in per the clients mandate (market mandate) then as the designer I want to make sure they are in the right place and impact the course the least.

In many warm season markets the paths are needed for overseeding.  Management companies have taken it to extreme and make players use carts and keep them on the path in the sake of "prestine conditions".  On my recent project we spent about $600,000 on paths.  This was doing them correctly.  Proper widths, hidden, drainage, curbing, pitch, and integral color to match the color of the adjacent natural desert granite.  With that formaula we all use to estimate greens fees that translates to a 6$ hit on the cost of a round.  Is it worth it.

The new course a WeKoPa is going with a stabilized DG path.  Lets see how that works and is received.  It will challenge the typical management mentality in this resort market.  
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Forrest Richardson

Re:If theres a cartpath, is the archicture great?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2006, 07:45:44 PM »
Mike — Don't let David fool you...He takes great pride in his cart paths!

(I agree with David...they must be dealt with if they are to be used. I, too, am interested to see how WeKoPa deals with the granite surface. I would absolutely love it to work!)

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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com
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