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mike_beene

too hilly
« on: January 14, 2006, 06:35:49 PM »
For the most part we practice the long game on flat fairway lies.Certainly being laser accurate from flat lies is a large part of golf.If a course never gives a flat lie except for tee shots,does it fail to test a players game?For one thing,the course is working the ball for the player.Without looking for a formula,don't you want some fairly level fairways?
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A_Clay_Man

Re:too hilly
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2006, 07:15:58 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 14, 2006, 06:35:49 PM
Without looking for a formula,don't you want some fairly level fairways?

Where's the sport in that?

Seriously, I find the ability to find a flat lie one of the secrets to many courses.
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JESII

Re:too hilly
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2006, 08:29:23 PM »
Mike and Adam,

Please be my guest this coming summer at Huntingdon Valley (outside of Philadelphia) and we'll see two things, Adam scratching his head wondering if even the tees are flat (maybe about 50%) because there sure as hell isn't a flat spot once you get off the tee, and Mike wishing the course would work the ball for him a little less. ;)

Seriously guys, my treat, this is a subject I'm interested in because there's not much flat ground at HVCC and when we get it nice and firm it's as good as anywhere. Maybe a bit of bias in that, but it does get good reviews.
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mike_beene

Re:too hilly
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2006, 08:43:06 PM »
Perhaps I should bring a few extra balls.
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Dan King

Re:too hilly
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2006, 08:59:34 PM »
mike_beene writes:
For the most part we practice the long game on flat fairway lies.

I think because most golfers practice hitting from level lies there should be very few of them on golf courses. Golf courses should challenge golfers, not let them feel comfortable. You may know where your shot will go from a level lie, but you'll have to try and figure out where it will go from an uphill lie.

Certainly being laser accurate from flat lies is a large part of golf.

Why is that a large part of the game?

If a course never gives a flat lie except for tee shots,does it fail to test a players game?

I think variety is a good thing. So flat lies will happen, and that is okay. But I see very little reason fairways should be bowling alley flat. Sometimes you get a flat lie in the fairway, sometimes you don't. Golf should test how you respond to the unfairness built into the game.

For one thing,the course is working the ball for the player.

Only assuming you want the ball to go the way the course is helping you go. And then you are going to need to figure out how much of a curve will be put on your ball. All this is going to require some thought, something golfers rarely like to do, but designers should encourage.

Without looking for a formula,don't you want some fairly level fairways?

Level spots will happen even on the humpiest fairway. No need to level a fairway to occasionally end up with some level lies.

Dan King
Quote
Gary Player hit an ugly little neck hook down the left side, and I hit a solid drive down the right side. Because Gary's ball was on the correct line, it rolled fifty extra yards to the flat bottom. I had a 207 yard one-iron from a downhill lie. Player had a 162yard seven-iron from a level lie. He made birdie. I made bogey.
 --Andy Bean (on playing the 10th hole at Augusta National)
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JLahrman

Re:too hilly
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2006, 09:46:23 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 14, 2006, 06:35:49 PM
For the most part we practice the long game on flat fairway lies.Certainly being laser accurate from flat lies is a large part of golf.If a course never gives a flat lie except for tee shots,does it fail to test a players game?For one thing,the course is working the ball for the player.Without looking for a formula,don't you want some fairly level fairways?

I think it just means our approach to practice is incomplete.
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Brian_Sleeman

Re:too hilly
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2006, 10:06:12 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 14, 2006, 06:35:49 PM
Certainly being laser accurate from flat lies is a large part of golf.

That's kind of a broad statement - if you grew up on courses with more variety to the terrain, you could argue the opposite.  In my opinion, it's the ability to adapt to a wide variety of lies that separates players (among many other things).  Sure, the terrain will work the ball for you to some extent, but as JES alluded to, neutralizing that effect is often the real goal.

Perhaps those who practice the most from level lies ought to spend some time working with uneven ones.  To me, it's one of the funnest aspects of the game...
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Lloyd_Cole

Re:too hilly
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2006, 11:14:21 PM »
Quote from: JAL on January 14, 2006, 09:46:23 PM

I think it just means our approach to practice is incomplete.

With the 2006 season to worry about I was just thinking about this. Where do we find practice facilities with uneven lies, or rough?? Certainly nowhere in Western Mass. I feel awful to dig up the fairway or rough at any course, but if I don't practice, how am I supposed to improve?
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mike_beene

Re:too hilly
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2006, 11:17:18 PM »
Before I get branded as a total flatlander,my home course might give you one flat shot a round.It's an old course for our part of the world(1912).I get tired of always having a slope.I started thinking about this watching the Sony,which at least looks flat.I do all kinds of short game slope practice.For the long game I really don't have the time to go out on the course.Too much slope practice could hurt my fragile swing.The point I am making(poorly) is that to many odd lies get similar to the Van de Velde Open setup and skill is not identified.
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mike_beene

Re:too hilly
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2006, 11:19:54 PM »
There aren't a lot of places to practice fairway bunkers either.
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Brian_Sleeman

Re:too hilly
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2006, 11:24:03 PM »
Some driving ranges / practice areas have uneven lies available, just not in the usual spots.  For example, my course's old driving range is far from anything spectacular and leaves a lot to be desired as a practice area, but it does have a hill on the far side of its tee that serves as a natural transition between the flat tee and the 10th fairway to its left.  It's not mown as low as the tee itself, but it's good enough for working on subtle left-to-right lies (and thankfully steers them away from the 10th fairway in case of a misfire).

It's also got some little rumples along its border all the way down that side, so it's possible to go to the opposite end and work on right-to-left lies of varying degree.  At first glance, the land appears totally flat, but the creative practitioner can always find a way.
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mike_beene

Re:too hilly
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2006, 11:33:17 PM »
Reminds me of Justin Leonard getting ready for the Open by hitting balls from the hardpan for several hours.Problem is the hardpan was twenty yards behind the tee.I would have killed someone,but he is a better ball striker and promised not to shank.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:too hilly
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2006, 07:17:48 AM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 14, 2006, 06:35:49 PM

For the most part we practice the long game on flat fairway lies.

Don't we practice fairway woods, drivers, medium and short irons from flat lies as well ?  Wedges and Lob wedges too ?[/color]

Certainly being laser accurate from flat lies is a large part of golf.

Who is laser accurate from flat lies ?

What percentage of golfers are laser like from flat lies ?

How is being laser like from flat lies a "LARGE" part of golf ?[/color]

If a course never gives a flat lie except for tee shots,does it fail to test a players game?

Test it for what ?[/color]

For one thing,the course is working the ball for the player.


Why would non-flat lies prevent that ?[/color]

Without looking for a formula, don't you want some fairly level fairways?

It depends upon what you're looking for in a golf course.

If you want practice range like conditions, I guess your answer would be yes.[/color]
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tonyt

Re:too hilly
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2006, 04:20:00 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 14, 2006, 11:17:18 PM
The point I am making(poorly) is that to many odd lies get similar to the Van de Velde Open setup and skill is not identified.

I think you are dead wrong. Uneven lies is not what characterised Carnoustie's difficulty that week.

If the lies are less likely to be all level, the need for skill and knowledge of shot execution from varying lies is heightened, and so it certainly favours the more skillful player.
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Dan King

Re:too hilly
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2006, 04:53:58 PM »
mike_beene writes:
The point I am making(poorly) is that to many odd lies get similar to the Van de Velde Open setup and skill is not identified.

Can you explain why you would even need a golf course to test your brand of skill? Wouldn't a driving range or even an indoor virtual course work better than a golf course where outside agencies can have an adverse effect on your demonstration of skill?

Dan King
Quote
For every game of golf is an open exhibition of overweening ambition, courage deflated by stupidity, skill sourced by a whiff of arrogance.
 --Alister Cooke
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mike_beene

Re:too hilly
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2006, 06:14:41 PM »
If I play a tour pro on a relatively flat golf course I will lose every time because they are going to make more birdies.Make every approach shot off a hill lie and I have a better chance(maybe one in 50)Yes ,Carnoustie is flat but the setup took skill,or at least subtle differences in skill,out of the picture.Why talk about architecture if we don't keep some reward for the best players.Would any of you design or play a course with hilly tees?If not,Why not?I happen to think chipping is a skill,but it often doesn't appear the USGA agrees.
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Dan King

Re:too hilly
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2006, 06:50:15 PM »
mike_beene writes:
Why talk about architecture if we don't keep some reward for the best players.

If you define the best players as the players who can hit the best shots there is little or no reason you need a golf course to determine that golfer.

If you define the best golfer who shoots the lowest scores regardless of outside agencies, who handles the bad luck as well as the good luck, who keeps his/her head while others are finding difficulty with the elements, then it makes sense to do things to take the best golfers out of their comfort level.

Uneven lies is one of many ways to take golfers out of their comfort level.

It seems you define the best by their physical skills only. I think physical skills are just one of many talents a best player should possess.

Dan King
Quote
[Golfers] are a special kind of moral realist who nips the normal romantic and idealistic yearnings in the bud by proving once or twice a week that life is unconquerable but endurable.
 --Alister Cooke
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:too hilly
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2006, 11:31:28 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 15, 2006, 06:14:41 PM

If I play a tour pro on a relatively flat golf course I will lose every time

And if you play him on any other course you won't break your streak.

They have every shot in the bag and putt like fiends, and the more adverse the conditions, the better they're going to fare against you, and, you can throw in rain, snow, wind and heat.
[/color]

because they are going to make more birdies.Make every approach shot off a hill lie and I have a better chance(maybe one in 50)Yes ,Carnoustie is flat but the setup took skill,or at least subtle differences in skill,out of the picture.Why talk about architecture if we don't keep some reward for the best players.

Would any of you design or play a course with hilly tees?

Design NO, Play Yes.[/color]

If not,Why not?

It's called drainage.[/color]

I happen to think chipping is a skill,but it often doesn't appear the USGA agrees.

How do you draw that conclusion. ?

Should the USGA redesign classic courses to include chipping areas even if the original architect didn't include any ?[/color]
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mike_beene

Re:too hilly
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2006, 11:49:32 PM »
This may be a misunderstanding of mine,but were courses such as Winged Foot,Baltusrol,etc designed with the thought that high rough would surround the greens on three sides?I think the USGA has backed off this setup some.I don't like the manufactured chipping areas,but the extreme rough around the green is essientially valueing the approach shot over the recovery because at some rough height Corey Pavin is no better a chipper than Hal Sutton.I didn't say I would beat the tour pro,but I know where my best chance is.
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JESII

Re:too hilly
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2006, 09:20:06 AM »
Mike,

There was a pretty lengthy thread about a year ago discussing which putting conditions improve the average handicappers results relative to Ben Crenshaw. The debate was pretty much the same as you're referrencing here; flat smooth greens or incredibly undulating greens. The argument was centered on the same principles you are assuming, more difficult conditions for everyone works towards leveling the playing field. I very much disagreed with that position in putting and do as well in ball striking. My opinion is that, the skill of the more accomplished player is enhanced by increasingly difficult conditions. I think this is fairly consistent throughout the range of human activities. Would you agree? Or can you find a different activity in which the less skilled bridges the gap to the more skilled simply by adding challenge to the task?
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mike_beene

Re:too hilly
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2006, 10:07:48 PM »
The obviously absurd answer is that if Tiger and I compete to see who can drive the ball across the Atlantic,we will tie.Look,I am really not a hater of hills.However,if every hole provides a hilly lie the so called best players(who have been identified on generally level courses)have their skill blurred.
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JLahrman

Re:too hilly
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2006, 10:55:38 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 16, 2006, 10:07:48 PM
The obviously absurd answer is that if Tiger and I compete to see who can drive the ball across the Atlantic,we will tie.Look,I am really not a hater of hills.However,if every hole provides a hilly lie the so called best players(who have been identified on generally level courses)have their skill blurred.

I completely disagree.  Well not with the fact that the shot would be harder for the pro, but that you would do better against the pro than you would off of flat lies.  Generally speaking, shots off of hilly lies are harder than flat, and in my opinion tougher conditions exacerbate the difference between Tiger and me.
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JESII

Re:too hilly
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2006, 10:41:23 AM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 16, 2006, 10:07:48 PM
The obviously absurd answer is that if Tiger and I compete to see who can drive the ball across the Atlantic,we will tie.Look,I am really not a hater of hills.However,if every hole provides a hilly lie the so called best players(who have been identified on generally level courses)have their skill blurred.

See those parentheses change the rules a bit. The best players are identified over a period of time and experience with different circumstances. How often have you walked down a range and saw some guy hitting every shot perfect and wondered what he'll shoot today? It's about more than solid ball striking from flat lies, each flaw your game posesses in ideal (read: flat, no wind, predictable) conditions becomes exaggerated with each degree of difficulty increase caused by outside influences. It's an exponential increase.
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Paul Payne

Re:too hilly
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2006, 10:51:43 AM »
Flat fairways, straight lines, give-away greens?....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Wake me up when it's over.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:too hilly
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2006, 11:10:07 AM »
JAL & JES II,

I don't think that Mike Beene has been exposed to the games of PGA Tour players at an up close and personal level, and thus, he doesn't appreciate or know how spectacular their games are.

And as such, the basis for his premise is flawed.
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