On the previous thread about The World Atlas of Golf's Top 18, Mark Rowlinson had asked "how would it work out with 1 through 18, 18 different architects, and a balanced 18 holes.

Well it was hard and I must admit there are a couple of holes that I'm still not sure of but overall I like the list. I will note that I stuck with only courses that I have seen, and was pretty particular to not repeat an architect (this involved RCD's history book regarding Morris)

I found it interesting how I did not have a Ross (my lack of experience and knowledge combined with no hole that truly stood out) or Pete Dye hole (he lost out to better candidates, but again I don't think I've seen enough).

See what you think, then produce a better list. I look forward to Tom Doak's list with the amount of courses he has visited.

The list:

1st Garden City - Travis
2nd Pine Valley - Crump
3rd Royal County Down – George Coombe
4th Banff Springs - Thompson
5th Merion (East) - Wilson
6th The Creek Club - Raynor
7th San Francisco GC - Tillinghaust
8th Crystal Downs - MacKenzie/Maxwell par 5
9th Friar's Head - Coore and Crenshaw

10th Riviera - George Thomas
11th St. Andrew’s – Nature/Robertson
12th Sunningdale - (old) Park/Colt
13th Gleneagles (Kings) - Braid
14th Royal Dornock - Morris
15th North Berwick - Strath
16th Shinnecock - Flynn
17th The National Golf Links of America – C.B. MacDonald
18th Pebble Beach – Egan

Par 71

A (selfish) request to the more seasoned and well-travelled players, writers, architects, etc. among us:

Please keep this thread going!

It promises to pack a lot of information/insights into one neat package.  

I have a long winter to pass, and much to learn about gca, and researching and imagining these ideal 18-holers would be great.

Thanks
P  

Ian -
A superlative effort. I started a list and I am glad that i chose a nnumber of holes (on the first 6!) the same as you, e.g. Garden City #1, Banff #4 (although I thought about #2, as I wanted to include Lahinch #4).

In any event, great job, you have inspired me to go forward with my list.

-Sean

Great job on Creek #6. It's one of my favorite holes anywhere, yet I always forget it in lists like this.

12th at Swinley Forest (455 yards par 4) by Colt is a world-class hole.  

Yes of course Mark. What a classic and it would keep Colt in the list. Terrific setting, pinched in fairway, open but inclined approach and just about the craziest green on the planet.

Mark:

I am surprised most of all by the 17th at The Addington -- I loved that course but I barely remember the hole!  There were several other holes I might have included from it, but the consensus of old experts was the long par-3 13th, which is hard to argue with.

Ian:

That list I referred to earlier was tweaked with the intent of getting geographical diversity; plus, my contract was that I got to be part of the crew for any of the holes I had not seen, so it was my ticket to Durban and Hirono!

I will work on it a bit this weekend and try to get as different a list as I can, but in my heart I would like to use your 8th, 10th, 11th, and 14th at a minimum.

The 11th at Ballybunion [if Simpson had anything to do with it] would be the obvious Simpson choice.  I can't remember for sure if Sir Guy Campbell built the fourth hole or the seventh hole at Rye [some member did the other, as I recall], but either of those would be worthy of a world's best list.

I am not sure which Pete Dye hole should make the list, although I've used the first at Long Cove before.  (I think I had a dream about that hole just last night.)  For Ross there are a lot of possible choices -- anything at Seminole or Pinehurst No. 2, the third at Linville, the seventh at Inverness, the tenth at Highlands, the thirteenth at Salem -- but I might be tempted to include the ninth at Whitinsville, to include a hole from a nine-hole course.

You could also include the 5th at Royal Worlington & Newmarket among the best 18 holes in the world, easily.  But I'm not sure who would get the credit for it.

Richard:

Thanks, I really miss that place.  I've still only played there the one time.

I remembered the hole, but had completely forgotten the part about teeing off over the previous green.  One sees it enough in the UK and Ireland that when you are over there for an extended stay you stop noticing such things, whereas in the States that would be a show-stopper.

Wayne:

There are three holes in your last four that I would never dream of putting on one of these lists -- and ironically, the one I would consider is the least well known of the four, the one in Cleveland!

Tom, I agree about The Addington, 13th is a great hole, world class, but I kept getting stymied.  Supposing I went for the par 4 9th at The Addington which is a lovely hole, what could I put in for the 17th?  I kept away from Royal St George's because I wasn't sure how much original Laidlaw Purves remains.  

Philip

I happened to have a picture of Ferndown #1. It's a very nice down hiller to start with. No heroics, just a deep breath and smash it down there as close to the bunkers as you can.

I'm afraid it's an exercise in compromise.

Do you list the 18 greatest architects (already entering dangerous waters) and try to figure out a list of 18 holes from their 3 million potential holes?  Do you start by slotting in a few undoubted classics (16th at CPC, 17th TOC....)? This is already out of hand.  

My mistake, I think, was to list about 25 architects, but then to write in, first, the 12th at Swinley Forest.  There is no denying that it is a great, world-class hole.  But Colt was such a wizard that I could have found a great hole from him for any hole number.  I also put in early on the 3rd at RCD - one my favourite holes in golf, but as I don't know the ancestry of any of the other holes at RCD it was a bit of a desperate attempt.  Already the plot was thickening and I was losing room to negotiate.  

I also had a problem with consortia - I was far from sure who had done what within the Fowler/Simpson set up or the Colt/Alison/MacKenzie team (while it survived).

I'd love to have incorporated something from Royal Worlington or Royal West Norfolk but I'm not sure who designed what.  Same with Royal St George's and, indeed, all the Open courses other than Portrush, which brings me back to having started with the 12th at Swinley.  Should I have started with one of a great architect's great holes or.....

Let's go back to the original thread.

Marc,

The Hawtree family ought to be there in any reckoning of British architecture.  My problem was in knowing exactly who had done what, and I suppose I'm looking for original architecture, not an upgrade.  That's the big problem with someone such as Braid - were his alterations to Carnoustie more significant than his work at Gleneagles?  Possibly so.  It's a minefield.  

Mark.

Mark,

This is a very difficult but enjoyable exercise.  Thanks!

Ian,

I can't believe I didn't include the 5th at Merion, which may be my alltime favorite par 4.  Although I really like the 5th at Sandwich, I give the nod to Merion.  I'm a knucklehead!  

As for your 17th, I can think of a lot of 17th holes I regard higher than the one at NGLA.  Just in Flynn's portfolio alone, the 17th at Pepper Pike (obviously it is on my list) Kittansett, Indian Creek, at Huntingdon Valley and Philadelphia Country.  But I know you're in the majority and I'm decidedly in the minority  

Yours is an excellent list.  If you, Tom and Mark don't mind,  given my first 14 holes and Tom correctly pointing out that 3 of the last 4 are a bit lame, how would you conclude the exercise?

How would you do this if you weren't yet 30, lived in Nebraska, and your golfing knowledge was limited. I had a dickens of a time just figuring if I had played courses with 18 different architects!!

But, here's my best effort. If I can figure out how to tweak it I will. What a fun exercise this was.

#1 -- Sand Hills (Coore and Crenshaw), Mullen NE (5)
#2 -- Pinehurst #7 (Rees Jones), Pinehurst NC (remember, limited golfing knowledge   ) (4)
#3 -- Chaska Town Course (Art Hills), Chaska MN (4)
#4 -- Prairie Dunes (Perry Maxwell), Hutchison KS (3)
#5 -- Pinehurst #2 (Donald Ross), Pinehurst NC (4)
#6 -- York Country Club (Unknown), York NE (surely everyone should have their 'home course' on the list) (3)
#7 -- Firethorn GC (Pete Dye), Lincoln NE (4)
#8 -- Pinehurst #8 (Tom Fazio), Pinehurst NC (see #2) (3)
#9 -- Charleston City Course (Raynor), Charleston SC (4)
OUT -- 35

#10 -- Legacy Golf Links (Jack Nicklaus II), Aberdeen NC (4)
#11 -- Jackrabbit Run GC (Frank Hummel), Grand Island NE (3)
#12 -- Arbor Links (Arnold Palmer), Nebraska City NE (4)
#13 -- Tobacco Road (Mike Strantz), Sanford NC (5)
#14 -- Woodland Hills (Jeff Brauer), Eagle NE (4)
#15 -- Wild Horse (Bunker Hill), Gothenburg NE (4)
#16 -- Pasatiempo (MacKenzie), Santa Cruz CA (4)
#17 -- San Juan Oaks (Gene Bates), Hollister CA (4)
#18 -- Pebble Beach (Chandler Egan), Pebble Beach CA (5)
IN -- 37
TOTAL -- 72