News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 3
Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« on: January 11, 2006, 03:29:38 PM »
I went to the Donald Ross Society site for the following list.

     Aronimink---Cedarbrook---Chester Valley---Gulph Mills---Kennett Square---Lulu---St. David's---Torresdale Frankford.

    How does this list stand  up against  Ross designs in other geographical centers such as N.Y. , N.J., Mass., the Carolinas , or any other area ?

    My impression is that his Philly work is not among his most highly esteemed . There are some fine courses on this list IMHO.

   I just realized they don't list Jeffersonville;one that I want to get back to play.


   
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 03:39:32 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 03:59:29 PM »
Mike,

The Cedarbrook listed is actually now the Short Course at Cederbrook hill and there is a lot of Tillinghast in that too. It's right next to Beaver Colle.... Arcadia University off of 309.

Cedarbrook Country Club is on Pennlyn Pike in Blue Bell.

mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 04:02:13 PM »
 Kyle,

   They had Overbrook on the list also, but I understand that is not his. That is why I said where I got the list. I certainly don't know which are his designs.

   But , I think the highest valued on this list are Ross.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 04:16:05 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2006, 04:11:24 PM »
Not having played any Ross courses outside of the Philadelphia area, I'd like to see Michael J. Fay's comments on this topic. From the courses that I've played, I would say that LuLu and Torresdale- Frankford are good members courses and would guess that Kennett Square and St. David's are too. Certainly Aronimink is a major league course. Gulph Mills and Chester Valley are probably no longer considered as Ross courses due to extensive work by others. I always thought the original Cedarbrook(NLE) was a Tillinghast. One could include Seaview's Bay Course as a partial Ross and Hellertown's Silver Creek and Riverton as well. Jeffersonville, although enjoyable, would not be of much interest other than its Ross cachet.

From what I've gathered, Ross' work in NJ should be added to MA(or New England) and NC as where his best work can be found.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2006, 04:18:11 PM »
 Other than Flynn, who has a better portfolio in Philly? I can't think of anyone.
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2006, 04:29:43 PM »
Mike

Doak's 2 courses at Stonewall would be more highly regarded than any Gordon courses or the 3 Palmer/Seay courses.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Craig_Rokke

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2006, 04:39:57 PM »
Applebrook, French Creek and Inniscrone aren't such a bad group.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2006, 04:45:03 PM »
Other than Flynn, who has a better portfolio in Philly? I can't think of anyone.

Hugh Wilson ? Depending on who you believe, Merion East and West, Cobbs Creek, Phoenixville, Pine Valley contributor?

Little Rhode Island might be Ross' best and most diverse state with Wannamoisett, Misquamicut, Agawam Hunt, Sakonnet and Triggs on the public side, parts of Newport plus a couple more.

TEPaul

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2006, 05:45:33 PM »
Ross's portfolio in the Philadelphia area I always think of as Aronimink, Gulph Mills, Torresdale Frankford, Lulu, St. David's. Kennett Square (only nine holes) and Riverton. Cedarbrook no, and Chester Valley there's basically nothing left of Ross there.

I agree with MikeS---Rhode Island has a lot of very good Ross courses, obviously because he devoted a lot of time to them since he lived in Little Compton, R.I. in the summer.

On the other hand, J.B. McGovern's daughter was telling me within the last year that Ross actually spent quite a bit of time in Philadelphia which would make some sense since she said Ross's daughter Lillian lived above his Winnewood office. McGovern's daughter said he was like a favorite uncle to her and that he was about the niceest man she ever knew. She also said he really did used to hook his thumbs into his vest all the time like some of those photos we've seen of him.  ;)

Kyle Harris

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2006, 05:56:52 PM »
You may as well add Schuylkill CC to that list of Ross Courses for Philadelphia.

Craig_Rokke

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2006, 06:37:03 PM »
There's Tumblebrook in Coopersburg (by Allentown) with some kind of Ross connection. Anyone ever play it or know anything about it?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 07:28:37 PM by Craig_Rokke »

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2006, 07:46:48 PM »
Wasn't Ross generally considered an outsider in Philly and Long Island?  

Brian;

  Nice to see you on here again!  Thanks again for your efforts with Dixie Cup II;
To answer your question, there was a thread on here called "Great Opportunities and Ross" dating from sometime in Spring of '04.  It should be archived.

I remember asking the question why, Long Island being the "Fertile Crescent" of golf courses it is, why Ross was not represented there; you had basically every other Golden Age architect represented with one course or another, except Ross.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Bill Shotzbarger

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2006, 08:58:43 PM »
Where's Schuylkill CC? It's not even in the GAP.

Craig_Rokke

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2006, 09:08:22 PM »
It's near Pottsville , PA.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2006, 09:15:15 PM »
Where's Schuylkill CC? It's not even in the GAP.

Bill,


I'm not certain which golf association the club is a member club of, but it's on Rt 61 North in Orwigsburg, PA (about 15 minutes north of Cabela's).  Several holes can be seen from Rt. 61-#8 landing area and green, #9 tee, #12 landing area and green, and #13 tee.  Kyle Harris and Dave Maberry know much more about it than I, and I am certain he will weigh in soon.  Their excellent superintendent, Jim Rattigan, is bringing back Ross features, as the club has Ross' plans.  
We visited and played back in July.  What a wonderful place for a game, and it will look and play even better as Jim completes more work, specifically tree removal and green expansion.  Definitely worth a look, and rather unique as I think it may be one of the last designs of Ross.  
How much he was involved I am not certain of, as I seem to recall JB McGovern's name listed on many of the drawings.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Adam_Messix

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2006, 09:19:43 PM »
Schuylkill CC in Orwigsburg has been talked about a lot here and is excellent.  

One course that doesn't get much talk here, but I really liked is Silver Creek in Hellertown.  The standard members course is 1/2 Ross (1-3, 13-18) and 1/2 Gordon.  However, there is a third nine that was part of the original course up in the hills that is excellent, with few bunkers and plenty to togographical movement.  There are several strong par fours in the middle of the hill nine, three and four in particular.    The only comparable Ross course to the Hill nine that I've seen is Highlands (NC) CC, just wider.


mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2006, 09:40:58 PM »
Pottsville is not Philadelphia; that much I'm sure of. As for Silver Creek , Where the Hellertown is that?
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2006, 10:11:51 PM »
Mike

Hellertown is near Bethlehem. The club is a member of GAP so look it up there. It was one of Ross' last courses and ,according to the club's website, the last course he visited before his death.

www.silvercreekcountryclub.com


Steve

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Craig_Rokke

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 10:36:00 PM »
Considering that many of the Gulph Mills members came from Merion and other well-known clubs, why did they choose Ross to design their course?  Was Flynn or McRaynor not available?

I don't think that Flynn really got into full-time architectural services until about 1920 or so, when he founded Toomey and Flynn. This was probably a couple years after Gulph Mills
decided to go with Ross, if my info is correct.

TEPaul

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2006, 05:54:41 AM »
"Considering that many of the Gulph Mills members came from Merion and other well-known clubs, why did they choose Ross to design their course?  Was Flynn or McRaynor not available?"

Brian:

Although GMGC has all the minutes of all the board meetings of the club since it was formed in 1916 I'm not sure why the club hired Ross and not Flynn or Macdonald/Raynor or someone else. The club was actually formed in Sept. 1916. The first organizational meeting was held in June 1916 and a letter from Weston Hibbs who in a sense was our founding member who oversaw the entire construction of the golf course states that that he spent three days with Ross going over the property in the middle of July 1916. As to why they hired Ross, though, I can't say.

In 1916 Flynn actually was a practicing (and advertizing) professional architect and had already begun work on a few golf courses (Doylestown and Harrisburg) on his own.  However, seeing as the founding members of GMGC seem to have been a group of about 10-11 disaffected members from Merion Cricket Club due to overcrowded golf there it may've been that they weren't willing to use someone from Merion at that point. Ross, even at that time was one of the better known PROFESSIONAL golf architects of which there still were not that many. Most of the best known Philadelphia architects at that time were the "amateurs"---eg Crump, Wilson, Thomas who would not take a fee for their services. Tillinghast was here and had become a professional but apparently Ross was better known at that time.

Coincidentally, even though I've never been too sure of the circumstances (Pete Trenham might know), it may've had something to do with my own grandfather, A.J. Drexel Paul. The reason I say that is St. David's G.C., a club he was very closely connected to also hired Ross about ten years later.

St. David's G.C. was in another location than it is now, and it seems Paul was a member of that club too (so was George Crump). St. David's wanted to move their club and it seems they were depending on Paul to help them do that. However, he and a group of his friends started GMGC instead. But then later St. David's did move to their present location which is on land that Paul sold them (the Pauls still live right next to St. David's G.C.). So I don't know whether it was a coincidence that both GMGC and St David's hired Ross to design their courses but considering Paul's close involvement in both those Ross courses perhaps he had something to do with the hiring of Ross.

I don't know much about this but my own father who at the time was about 6-10 years old was put in school in Aiken S.C. where his parents spent some time in the winter so perhaps they may've been quite familiar with Pinehurst where obviously Ross was based.

Obviously back then the town was pretty small and those in golf, and even in business all seem to have known each other. I recently found out that Drexel & Co. which was at that time a big player in the financial world was run by my own great grandfather, James W. Paul (he married one of founder A.J. Drexel's daughters) and one of the operating partners of Drexel & Co. at that time was George Thomas's father.

John Ott, of PVGC, once said that the key to understanding the "Philadelphia School" of golf architecture was understanding how close they all were---that basically back then they were all close friends and golfing partners.

But apparently with both GMGC and St David's they wanted someone who was clearly a professional and perhaps from outside the area too---and that was Ross.

That's my supposition but I sure can't prove it.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 06:00:17 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2006, 06:16:58 AM »
By the way, in the early 1920s Flynn (and the Wilsons) were asked to come into GMGC and fix the greens that apparently were not growing well at all. This seemed to cause quite a lot of consternation within the club causing the pro/greenkeeper John Reid to quit. I don't see asking Flynn and Wilson to come in and fix the greens as unusual at that time seeing as they were considered at that time to be the best experts in the country in golf agronomy. After-all they'd fixed Merion's agronomy and PVGC's as well previous to that, and at that time they were also in the process of starting the USGA Green Section (at that time called the USGA Green Committee).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 06:18:39 AM by TEPaul »

mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2006, 08:37:51 AM »
 Craig,

   Gil Hanse has certainly added much to the golfing fun in Philly ; a  few more and we can call it a portfolio.
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2006, 08:48:02 AM »
Craig,

As Tom Paul said, Flynn was designing golf courses while he was still head greenkeeper at Merion Cricket Club (the golf club was spun off in the 1940s).  His first design was a 9-hole course in Vermont in 1909.  Flynn came to Philadelphia by his brother-in-law's request to work on the new course for the Merion Cricket Club in 1912.  Flynn worked on the East Course and headed construction at the West Course a year later when his brother-in-law was sacked for being excessively drunk; which must have been pretty drunk given the drinking culture back then.  Flynn worked on the early redesigns of the East course between 1912 and 1916 and, of course for the next 20 years when the course was substantially changed.  While at Merion, Flynn designed CC Harrisburg and Doylestown CC in 1916 and likely helped Wilson at Phoenixeville and Seaview.  Flynn partnered with Toomey in an engineering and construction firm around 1921 to complement his design shop where he was the lone designer for all projects.  Toomey and Flynn constructed most of Flynn's designs as well as Burning Tree and Westchester for Alison and Travis.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 08:48:20 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2006, 08:52:53 AM »
Mayday,

If clubs from Scranton and French Creek/Stonewall(s) can be considered Philadelphia courses... how can Schuylkill Country Club (barely 20 miles north of Reading) not be considered? The design would have come out of the Wynnewood office, no?


mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2006, 08:56:48 AM »
 Kyle,
   
     The problem is that Pottsville beat Strath Haven in the state football quarterfinals and I haven't gotten over it yet.
,

AKA Mayday