New Links

« **on:** January 05, 2006, 03:42:59 PM »

I know many of the great golf courses of the world come from the links on the ocean in places like Scotland and Ireland. It got me thinking, are there any 'newer' links courses on the ocean? Not all the linksland could be used up, so why arent more courses being created on these precious links??? If architects are really striving to make really, truly great golf courses then why not find a pice of linksland, and beautiful dunes along the ocean? If architects along time ago could use these lands to create great, mystical golf courses like Carnoustie, St. Andrews, and Portrush (to name a few), then why arent architects building courses along the dunesland now?? Could the quality of older courses such as those named be matched by architects today? I mean, no one can recreate ANY of these courses, but with all the dunes and linksland there ought to be room to create some new, great golf courses, right??

« **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2006, 03:49:39 PM »

You have David McLay Kidd's new course @ the Links Trust (the 7th course) in St. Andrews opening in 2007.

« **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2006, 03:50:43 PM »

There's a handful of proposed new links in Ireland but the permitting process is stalling most of them. EU regulations and environmentalists are the primary road blocks.

Some proposed projects off the top of my head:
Doak at Kilshannig Cross
Coore/Crenshaw at Kilshannig Cross
Spring at Inch Strand
Engh at Carne actually being done.
Faldo at Bartraugh (sp?)
Nicklaus at St. Patricks

« **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2006, 03:51:53 PM »

Pacific Dunes, Friars Head, Bandon Dunes, Kingsbarns, Cabot Links (hopefully), Crowbush Cove, Barnbougle Dunes... I'm sure there are others.

The reality is, Jordan, that environmental concerns restrict golf architects in many areas from working in dunes. And where there are dunes, there are often aren't any people. I don't think this is because golf architects don't want to work on great sites...

« **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2006, 03:55:26 PM »

Quote from: Robert Thompson on January 05, 2006, 03:51:53 PM

And where there are dunes, there are often aren't any people.

Sand Hills...If a great course is made, people will find a way to come

« **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2006, 04:07:14 PM »

Jordan -

Well, for starters, Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, The European Club, Doonbeg (both in Ireland), Kingsbarns, Dundonald (both in Scotland) and Barnbougle (Tasmania) are modern links (or very links-like) courses built within the past 5-10 years. Tom Doak is doing a links course in SW Ireland currently as well. Nick Faldo is planning to build a links on an island of the west coast off Ireland.

The problem with existing linksland (and there may not be quite as much of it as you think there is) is that 1) much of it is in environmentally protected areas and 2) much of it is in rather remote locations that would make building a golf course a marginal business proposition. There is a ton of open linksland on the coast line around Loch Fleet in the Scottish Highlands (very near Dornoch & Golspie) that could probably handle another 2-4 courses, but is subject to both constraints I have mentioned

Clearly, the hot spot for links and duneland golf course development these days is in the mid-US, with multiple courses being built in Nebraska, Kansas, South Dakota, eastern Colorado, etc.

DT

« **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2006, 04:56:43 PM »

What about Monatana and Wyoming? There's plenty room in both places, and both could fit numeroud courses.

I would just love to see all this awesome dunesland, especially in Europe where golf originated, to be used up for great gof courses instead of essentially just 'being there' with no use. I can only imagine what some modern day architects like C&C or Doak could do with land like that. I would bet it would be amazing

« **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2006, 05:04:28 PM »

Quote from: Dave Bourgeois on January 05, 2006, 03:49:39 PM

You have David McLay Kidd's new course @ the Links Trust (the 7th course) in St. Andrews opening in 2007.

Good as it probably will be, this will not be a links course.

« **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2006, 05:10:46 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on January 05, 2006, 04:56:43 PM

What about Monatana and Wyoming? There's plenty room in both places, and both could fit numeroud courses.

I would just love to see all this awesome dunesland, especially in Europe where golf originated, to be used up for great gof courses instead of essentially just 'being there' with no use. I can only imagine what some modern day architects like C&C or Doak could do with land like that. I would bet it would be amazing

Hate to break it to you, my exuberant young friend, but Montana and Wyoming aren't exactly the first places I think about when the word "linksland" is spoken. And Sand Hills isn't a links -- it is links-like, but it is inland and links necessarily need to be built on sandy soil along the ocean. I don't think the Pacific touches Wyoming, at least not yet...

« **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2006, 05:25:55 PM »

Robert -

SH is a links course in all but one respect. It is built on sand dunes formed by a retreating sea. It's just that the sea retreated back to the current Gulf of Mexico about 350 million years ago.

Bob

« **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2006, 05:41:21 PM »

Jordan -

You are correct, there is a fair amount of links and links-like land available globally that would probably make wonderful golf courses.

However, I trust you realize that it takes a client (willing to invest roughly $5mil to $50 mil) to hire an architect to design & build a golf course. Sit down some time and do the math - could a course in some of these remote locations (many of which offer golfing weather for less than 6 months of the year) produce a reasonable return on such an investment?

Believe me, it is a lot harder than you think.

DT

« **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2006, 05:46:34 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on January 05, 2006, 04:56:43 PM

I would just love to see all this awesome dunesland, especially in Europe where golf originated, to be used up for great gof courses instead of essentially just 'being there' with no use. I can only imagine what some modern day architects like C&C or Doak could do with land like that. I would bet it would be amazing

I love great golf courses as much as anyone else in here, but I disagree that land that is "just being there with no use" is a bad thing. Contrary to popular Western belief, the earth isn't just sitting here, waiting to be "used" by humans. What's wrong with just leaving the land as it is? Development, even for a golf course, isn't always a good thing!

« **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2006, 07:39:43 PM »

Does anyone think it's possible to create another Carnoustie, or St. Andrews, or at least the equivalent of one, whether it be in the US or Europe?? It would be cool, and guaranteed Doak or C&C could do it

If it could happen, imagine what would happen for golf and golf architecture...it would go crazy (even more so then SH

)

« **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2006, 07:40:42 PM »

If you ask me, Jordan, CB Mac did a pretty good job of it at NGLA.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2006, 07:46:34 PM »

Quote from: BCrosby on January 05, 2006, 05:25:55 PM

Robert -SH is a links course in all but one respect. It is built on sand dunes formed by a retreating sea. It's just that the sea retreated back to the current Gulf of Mexico about 350 million years ago.Bob

Spanish Bay in Pebble Beach is a true links course. Also there is some great links property on Monterey Bay in Seaside that used to belong to Fort Ord. I hope one day a course is built there on and through the dunes. Environmentalists just don't understand or its just a shakedown.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 05, 2006, 09:09:16 PM »

Quote from: Tim Leahy on January 05, 2006, 07:46:34 PM

Also there is some great links property on Monterey Bay in Seaside that used to belong to Fort Ord. I hope one day a course is built there on and through the dunes. Environmentalists just don't understand or its just a shakedown.

That's the knid of land I'm talkin' about

I mean maybe another Cypress-Pebble type course. They have land like that at Neah Bay in WA, the western most part of the continental US. If architects could get a hold on land lke this, just imagine the possibilities.

And yes, Kyle, CB Mac did a great job with NGLA

« **Reply #16 on:** January 05, 2006, 09:26:11 PM »

Jordan,

You're right, Washington has lots of land along the coastline that would be great for golf. Unfortunately, most of it is Indian reservation land, like the Neah Bay area you mentioned. It's a shame that it won't produce something like Bandon, but maybe it's also a blessing. Our state has already become the 14th most populous, and I think you'd agree that the traffic around the Puget Sound area STINKS!!!

« **Reply #17 on:** January 05, 2006, 09:32:12 PM »

Jordan-

In theory, a great idea. I'm not sure how much true seaside
linksland is left in the US. The contending factor is that if 170
acres of seaside land is worth $ xx as a golf course, it gotta be worth a lot more to the housing market.

I just saw that a parcel (it was something like 3/4 of
an acre) of extremely prime oceanfront property in the "dunes"
of Avalon, NJ is on the market for about $ 7.5 million. The
4000 sf house on the lot may as well not even be there, because it will be knocked down soon after the sale is made.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 05, 2006, 09:41:15 PM »

Quote from: Craig_Rokke on January 05, 2006, 09:32:12 PM

Jordan-

In theory, a great idea. I'm not sure how much true seaside
linksland is left in the US. The contending factor is that if 170
acres of seaside land is worth $ xx as a golf course, it gotta be worth a lot more to developers.

I just saw that a parcel (it was something like 3/4 of
an acre) of extremely prime oceanfront property in the "dunes"
of Avalon, NJ is on the market for about $ 7.5 million. The
4000 sf house on the lot may as well not even be there, because it will be knocked down soon after the sale is made.

Craig, I dont know if this happens with land like it does with other stuff, but if you buy more acres do you get discounted prices...like instead of 30 million$ for 4 acres, maybe 25 mill??? Land is getting very expensive...but the project by NGLA, what is it, Sebonack, got me thinking about other land that could be up for grabs

« **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2006, 09:48:27 PM »

Jordan-

Price per acre would no doubt go down with a larger sized
property.

I'm not an expert on golf course economics, but I would think that some of these recently-built private courses on very prime ground, will do fine as a result of substantial initiation fees/dues.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2006, 10:41:56 PM »

Heres a couple more questions about this stuff

How well do you think Sebonack will be against the best golf courses in the world??

How much more land is there like the lnd at Sebonack??

How many more investors are there willing to invest in a golf course like the one at Sebonack??

What would be the BEST place in the world for a new golf course??

Thanks,

JW

« **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2006, 10:49:08 PM »

Jordan,

When Ben Crenshaw is asked what makes for interesting golf architecture, he always responds with one word.

"Time."

Give the new stuff some time.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2006, 11:24:33 PM »

Jordan -

Wake up and smell the coffee my friend!

We have mentioned at least a dozen newly built links/links-like courses (a number of which have been designed by Doak and C&C) that might very well some day be considered in the same league as TOC, Carnoustie, Portrush, et. al.

But, as Kyle Harris says in quoting Mr. Crenshaw, only time will reveal whether Pacific Dunes, Friars Head, Sand Hills, Sebonack, Kingsbarns, Barnbougle Dunes, Ballyneal, etc. rise to those lofty standards.

The courses you are looking for have been and are being built RIGHT NOW!

DT

« **Reply #23 on:** January 06, 2006, 01:32:38 AM »

Quote from: Rich Goodale on January 05, 2006, 05:04:28 PM

Quote from: Dave Bourgeois on January 05, 2006, 03:49:39 PM
You have David McLay Kidd's new course @ the Links Trust (the 7th course) in St. Andrews opening in 2007.

Good as it probably will be, this will not be a links course.

Rich, what about Kidd's new course at Machrihanish Bay?

« **Reply #24 on:** January 06, 2006, 02:20:42 AM »

Jason

I'm pretty sure that one is being built on linksland, but I haven't seen it yet.

Rich

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