In another thread, Tom Doak states that Pine Valley is unplayable for anybody over a 15 handicap (from ANY set of tees). I couldn't agree more.

 Are there any other Top 100 caliber courses (I wanted to use the word great but since that word understandably means different things to different people, I'll say Top 100) where the same thing can be said.  Obviously the key here is from any set of tees, not just moving the average player all the way back.

If there aren't any (or many), is that even a further testament to how great PV really is? I would think so.

Philip,

I think what Tom was referring to was the fact that at PV it is very easy to get your ball into a position off the fairway (very likely) or off the green (almost as likely) in which a bogey caliber golfer will literally not be able to finish the hole. PV has this capability on virtually every hole.

I think Tom clearly said that the one reason he does not rank PV #1 is its lack of playability for all. Certainly a valid point of view, but PV was never intended to cater to all.

Are there any other Top 100 caliber courses (I wanted to use the word great but since that word understandably means different things to different people, I'll say Top 100) where the same thing can be said.  Obviously the key here is from any set of tees, not just moving the average player all the way back.

If there aren't any (or many), is that even a further testament to how great PV really is? I would think so.

(Bold emphasis added by your truly)

I'd guess many or most of the more modern top 100 courses are unplayable for the >15 handicapper, if by unplayable you mean the potential for not being able to finish a hole, due to the abundance of water as a hazard. It's not top 100, but a course like Mystic Rock is unplayable (under this definition) for me. Too much rock and too much water. Unless I want to simply hit 7 iron through wedge all day long, and try to bunt it around. Same thing holds with most desert courses.

Contrast that with many of the older classics, which will kill you on the scorecard, but at least allow you to finish all the holes and not go through a dozen golf balls.

As to your second point, any idiot can make a course unplayable for a >15 handicapper. I'm sure PV is worthy of its lofty status, but I'm also certain this isn't the reason for it.

 

I belive it may have somthing to do with money. and percentages.

Koolau on Oahu may fit the bill, although I have never played there.

As far as PGA West goes, from the tips I could get over the first trouble okay and stay short of the main hazards. The second shot was usually just short of the green hazards. I could scrape it around in 90. From a more reasonable tee selection I would shoot 100+.

Any course with an island green is probably unplayable following the rules of golf.

I have played a few decent quality local courses that have a forced carry off of every tee location for more than half the holes. I don't really mind because in some ways I kind of like that sort of thing, but I always wonder why they do that. It has to discourage local traffic from the higher handicap golfers. If you can;t get the ball in the air you will never get there period.

Sometimes I wonder about this sort of thinking.

Aren't high-handicappers high-handicappers because they CAN'T play golf? (At least as well).

When I hear about a course being unable to be played by a high-handicapper, I think to myself... well Duh!

That being said, I know Pine Valley has some pretty treachourous carries. But, from the most forward tee, what is the furthest carry?

Is the fifth hole a 200+ yard carry for every tee?

Anyone here like "Lost Key Golf Club"  near the  Florabama (RIP)? Its an Arnold Palmer course that we have to drag our high handicappers to. Gunge on both side....forced carries...some island like greens - built up with ties etc.

The par 4 10th for me was the toughest. I finally figured out its a 6I drive followed by a 9I short of the green and then a pitch.

Tom -

ANGC is also one of the relatively few courses both good and bad players enjoy. It was also one of the first courses I know  where that was the principal and publically announced goal of the designers. By which they implied, without saying so expressly, that ANGC was designed to contrast with the PV model.

"Enjoyable for both good and bad players" has become an over-used (and virtually meaningless) cliche in recent years. But that wasn't always the case.

Bob

Kyle (and to a lesser extent tommy Williamsen) -

You must not have spent much time as a high handicapper. There are numerous things within your posts that I would take issue with.

To say a high handicapper can't play golf is certainly an exaggeration. When I was playing somewhat regularly, say 3 times a month, my index was 22.something. It doesn't take much bad play to shot a 95 - a few penalty shots from bad tee shot, and a mediocre short game that does not save those strokes around the green that better golfers routinely save. If you don't have the time to practice (or probably more accurately, choose other things to do with precious time), you're not going to learn to save those strokes, and you're not going to stop hitting the occasional shot OB. (All of this applies to your post on course management as well, tommy - course management might save your friend a few strokes, and it might even take an idiot who goes for everything from 130 to 100 in a blink of an eye.)

Call me crazy, but here is my characterization of most 20-30 handicappers, based on my play and the observation of many golfers I've played with:

- lousy short game due to lack of practice (this is where there is a tremendous advantage to having played the game a lot as a youngster - this trait comes back quickly)

- incredibly wide range of misses - often short, occasionally (thought rarely) long, often way right, occasionally way left, plus throwing in the odd topped or fatted duff shot that goes maybe 10-20 yards, regardless of the club

- penchant for penalty shots, probably too often due to trying to make an heroic shot (with the logic being, I don't get out that often, might as well give it a shot, I have nothing to lose)

- indifferent putting (not grinding out every putt).

I can make a 170 yard carry pretty easily. I can make it with my 5 or 6 iron if you give me a few tries. The problem is that I can't do it consistently, so on a course with tons of forced carries, I'm going to occasionally duff one into the hazard, or I'm going to crank my 3 wood or driver OB while trying a 200 yard carry (which is well within my capabilities).

But, as I've often stated on here, most golfers want to have their egos stroked (see Tom D's sagacious post above), so architects throw in a bunch of 100-150 yard carries that are really not even that difficult for a high handicapper, but become problematic if they are frequent enough, to make the better golfer feel better about himself.

So, in closing, I'll say that it's the better players with poor self esteem that are screwing us part time high handicappers!

P.S. specifically to tommy - I take my medicine all the time. The problem is, even after taking my medicine, there's still a good chance I'm going to be further punished on a penal course.

One other thought:

I seriously question the numbers thrown around by the people on here who do actual course ratings. That approach seems to me to be a highly fallacious way of looking at the game. I played a round a few years ago with an older gentleman who I consistently outdrove with my 4 iron versus his Big Bertha, yet he beat me by about 15 strokes, because he could chip and putt. He was effectively a single digit handicapper who drove it about 200, while I was a high handicapper hitting my 4 iron about 210. Those numbers flat out don't make sense to me.

Thanks, Adam. I'm sure they're a lot of us out there, though few who post on this site, in my experience playing with other GCAers.